Air Canada and their taxi speed

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

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yycflyguy
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Re: Air Canada and their taxi speed

Post by yycflyguy »

Rockie wrote:
Big Pistons Forever wrote:Your point about the future is bang on but that is still no excuse to be unprofessional when operating the aircraft.
Taxiing slowly is not being unprofessional. Being unsafe or deliberate and flagrant violations of the SOP's is, but that's definitely NOT what's going on here.
rudder wrote:If you guys believe that taxiing slowly, refusing drafts, booking off sick, writing up extra snags, or any other traditional pilot work-to-rule campaign is going to make a difference this time around, you are seriously misjudging your circumstances.
You are absolutely right, and nobody believes that. The real fight hasn't even started.
Agreed on both posts.

This is just the foreplay.... I can't wait for the main event. Our Strike mandate has another 51 or so days... probably less when it becomes obvious to the Mediator, the government and our NC that AC has no intention on negotiating.

Expect delays. Plan for it.
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Rockie
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Re: Air Canada and their taxi speed

Post by Rockie »

yycflyguy wrote:This is just the foreplay....
Agreed but I have a more apt analogy. In dog fight parlance this is just the snarling stage. There will be no lov'in going on between Air Canada and the employees that make the company for a very, very long time.
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rudder
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Re: Air Canada and their taxi speed

Post by rudder »

yycflyguy wrote:... probably less when it becomes obvious to the Mediator, the government and our NC that AC has no intention on negotiating.
Neither the Minister, Justice Otis, nor any tribunal or arbitrator is going to reward bad behaviour. Furthermore, the Labour Code requires full disclosure during bargaining. AC has a legal obligation to bargain fairly, honestly, openly, and in good faith. That does not mean that they have to capitulate. The same obligation falls to ACPA.

There will be no home runs that flow out of this process. All of the rhetoric about extreme outcomes makes for great theatre but is unlikely particularly if the final result falls to either the Minister or an arbitrator.

What is painfully obvious is that nobody involved is prepared to deal with the reality facing AC in 2014 and beyond. What is required is a plan that will generate sustainable cash flows that can reasonably be expected to meet the financial obligations associated with pension and fleet renewal in an environment of increased local competition.

This looks more and more like a pi$$ing contest and less and less like fact based problem solving. In the end, this is unfolding like a dysfunctional marriage where the logical conclusion would be divorce. I guess the only remaining question is who gets to keep the house?
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Biff
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Re: Air Canada and their taxi speed

Post by Biff »

I can sure understand your anger at management, and like most pilots in Canada, I support you, however now you are merely inconveniencing other airlines. If you are trying to prove a point, I'm not sure this is the way. You've added maybe a couple of minutes to the block time and burnt a little extra fuel(although not much). As far as the safety card goes, if on a long 2 mile stretch it's only safe to taxi 10kts, how can you possibly get airborne on a similar(although wider) 2 mile stretch?

If you really wanted to make a statement, why don't you extend the flaps at 25 miles out and maybe drop the gear down at 15 miles out. That way you can maintain an appropriate airspeed in the terminal area, thus not inconveniencing anyone, and still "stick it to the man". :P

If your really concerned about increasing your block time, can't you just adjust your speed in cruise. Generally that shouldn't inconvenience anyone else.

Again guys, you have the support of most of the other pilots in Canada, just try to protest in a way that doesn't inconvenience us or cause us to spend more in fuel or airframe time. I say this as we have a great relationship with our employer and are striving to fly our aircraft in a professional manner, which means both safely and efficiently.
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Donald
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Re: Air Canada and their taxi speed

Post by Donald »

I fully support the AC guys/gals, love your product, and I want you to at least maintain if not raise the bar for aviation in Canada.

Having said that...

Work-to-rule (which is what this slow taxi, slow cruise, block growth BS sounds like) will only piss off your passengers and future customers once they start missing connections or arrive late a few times. When your customers lose confidence, they will start booking WJ even more, and that will only serve to further hurt your bottom line and strengthen your management's position that they need concessions to stay alive. In the meantime, they collect bonuses and don't really care.

Bottom line, don't destroy whatever confidence is left for your customers!!
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Rockie
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Re: Air Canada and their taxi speed

Post by Rockie »

rudder wrote:What is required is a plan that will generate sustainable cash flows that can reasonably be expected to meet the financial obligations associated with pension and fleet renewal in an environment of increased local competition.
Couldn't agree more. Still waiting for the highly paid best and brightest to come up with one. For sure their LCC plan (ver. 3.5) is not it.
Biff wrote:If your really concerned about increasing your block time, can't you just adjust your speed in cruise.
Block growth is not the concern, nor apparently are our salaries since we are flight planned most everywhere as a matter of policy at Cost Index 0. It`s not possible to go any slower, and most of the time on short sectors we`re going much slower than Porter.
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SilentMajority
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Re: Air Canada and their taxi speed

Post by SilentMajority »

[/quote]
What is painfully obvious is that nobody involved is prepared to deal with the reality facing AC in 2014 and beyond. What is required is a plan that will generate sustainable cash flows that can reasonably be expected to meet the financial obligations associated with pension and fleet renewal in an environment of increased local competition.
[/quote]

Quote of the week..."Labor's worst enemy is an unprofitable employer."
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Rockie
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Re: Air Canada and their taxi speed

Post by Rockie »

SilentMajority wrote:Quote of the week..."Labor's worst enemy is an unprofitable employer."
Let's review some history.

Our current CEO was the architect of the plan that withdrew Aeroplan, Jazz and maintenance services from Air Canada and sold them off for 4 billion dollars I believe, not one cent of which actually went to Air Canada. "Unlocking the hidden value" was the catch phrase, but they left off the part that said the proceeds wouldn't be returned to the company that created it.

That left only the employees, aircraft, and the passengers that bought seats in them, plus the rapidly accumulating debt since 3/4 of all the value was already removed. Both the debt and the employees are considered a liability on the Air Canada balance sheet leaving the aircraft and the passengers as the only remaining assets. The only reason the aircraft and passengers weren't taken as well was because of a little thing called our scope clause.

The company now wants to completely eliminate our scope clause removing any contractual rights the "AIR CANADA" pilots have to flying Air Canada aircraft and passengers.

What do you think our current CEO would do if we let that happen?
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scopiton
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Re: Air Canada and their taxi speed

Post by scopiton »

everything is politics at air canada. you start a discussion about taxi speed and you end up with business recipes and political opinions...
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Re: Air Canada and their taxi speed

Post by YYZSaabGuy »

scopiton wrote:everything is politics at air canada. you start a discussion about taxi speed and you end up with business recipes and political opinions...
Be grateful it hasn't degenerated into yet another FP60 slugfest....
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Re: Air Canada and their taxi speed

Post by Old fella »

YYZSaabGuy wrote:
scopiton wrote:everything is politics at air canada. you start a discussion about taxi speed and you end up with business recipes and political opinions...
Be grateful it hasn't degenerated into yet another FP60 slugfest....
.


If commentary continues to a third page..... it(FP60) will no doubt, be a topic

:wink:
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Rockie
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Re: Air Canada and their taxi speed

Post by Rockie »

Old fella wrote:If commentary continues to a third page..... it(FP60) will no doubt, be a topic
Not unless you guys make it one. So how about you drop it and spare everybody?
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Lt. Daniel Kaffee
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Re: Air Canada and their taxi speed

Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee »

Hey Rockie

Interesting to see the revisionist history come out....

Let's step back a few years. AC filed for bankruptcy in Apr 2003 after all the unions gave Mr Milton the "middle finger". So the corp filed under the CCAA.

In order to get investors to invest a huge amount of cash > $1.5 Billion...after the shareholders, bond holders, aircraft lease holders (and yes, the employees) took big haircuts, Milton came up with a plan. Invest your cash in AC, and we'll split up the company and you'll get all your money back within a few years...

The investors (GE Capital, Cerberus, Deutche Bank) all agreed to this plan, and signed the "plan of arrangement".

All the employee groups signed off on the plan.

The plan was executed and worked as advertised. Then a lawyer comes along and tells ACPA that the employees and pilots are getting a raw deal with the ACE $2billion payout to the shareholders. They go to court. The judge spanks APCA in her judgement essentially telling them that they signed on to the plan of arrangement, this breakup and sell-off was all laid out there, so don't come crying to me....

If Milton hadn't come up with the plan he did, there would have been no AC after sometime in 2004.

Now you might suggest that would have been a better thing to happen....but please don't cry about the "deal"....the only reason AC exists 8 years later is because of that deal....and all the complainers/whinners about that deal have had 8 years to find a better job...funny though, not too many have left for "greener" pastures recently.
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YYZSaabGuy
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Re: Air Canada and their taxi speed

Post by YYZSaabGuy »

Rockie wrote:
Old fella wrote:If commentary continues to a third page..... it(FP60) will no doubt, be a topic
Not unless you guys make it one. So how about you drop it and spare everybody?
Don't believe either Old Fella or myself have been responsible for the ongoing FP60 debate in this forum, Rockie. Not much for us to drop.
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Rockie
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Re: Air Canada and their taxi speed

Post by Rockie »

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote:Invest your cash in AC, and we'll split up the company and you'll get all your money back within a few years...
What investment did Air Canada end up with? As I said everything's been stripped except the one thing our scope clause protected, and now they want that too leaving nothing. Revisionist history indeed...
YYZSaabGuy wrote:Don't believe either Old Fella or myself have been responsible for the ongoing FP60 debate in this forum,
No, just this thread. Nobody wants to talk about it and it doesn't belong here anyway, so stop talking about it.
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Ah_yeah
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Re: Air Canada and their taxi speed

Post by Ah_yeah »

Kaffee, you have no clue. You must have read Milton, the sociopath`s, autobiography.
Ultimately, my bad for responding to the sausages on this board.
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YYZSaabGuy
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Re: Air Canada and their taxi speed

Post by YYZSaabGuy »

Rockie wrote:
YYZSaabGuy wrote:Don't believe either Old Fella or myself have been responsible for the ongoing FP60 debate in this forum,
No, just this thread. Nobody wants to talk about it and it doesn't belong here anyway, so stop talking about it.
That didn't stop you from jumping all over it above, did it? And besides, I don't see "Moderator" beside your name, so you don't get to tell people what they can't write about. If you don't like the way a thread is going, stop reading it.
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Rockie
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Re: Air Canada and their taxi speed

Post by Rockie »

You're right, I'm not a moderator and can't tell you what not to write about. So please feel free to write all you want about that topic you criticize other people for writing about. I'll just read.
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Re: Air Canada and their taxi speed

Post by YYZSaabGuy »

Rockie wrote:You're right, I'm not a moderator and can't tell you what not to write about. So please feel free to write all you want about that topic you criticize other people for writing about. I'll just read.
And you should continue to feel free to write all you want about that topic, while simultaneously telling other people that they shouldn't write about it. I'll just read too.
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Old fella
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Re: Air Canada and their taxi speed

Post by Old fella »

Now Rockie and YYZ SaabGuy………. Play nice, this is the old man and you may be sent to your rooms and your toys taken away from you.

Rockie: My commentary was tongue in cheek (I am old and nothing better to do – we are like that you know). It is apparent this (FP60) is a very sensitive topic with you so I do apologize if you took my post as rubbing your face into it. Shant happen again…
Cheers
OF
:goodman:
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windowseat
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Re: Air Canada and their taxi speed

Post by windowseat »

Rockie wrote:
SilentMajority wrote:Quote of the week..."Labor's worst enemy is an unprofitable employer."
Let's review some history.

Our current CEO was the architect of the plan that withdrew Aeroplan, Jazz and maintenance services from Air Canada and sold them off for 4 billion dollars I believe, not one cent of which actually went to Air Canada. "Unlocking the hidden value" was the catch phrase, but they left off the part that said the proceeds wouldn't be returned to the company that created it.

That left only the employees, aircraft, and the passengers that bought seats in them, plus the rapidly accumulating debt since 3/4 of all the value was already removed. Both the debt and the employees are considered a liability on the Air Canada balance sheet leaving the aircraft and the passengers as the only remaining assets. The only reason the aircraft and passengers weren't taken as well was because of a little thing called our scope clause.

The company now wants to completely eliminate our scope clause removing any contractual rights the "AIR CANADA" pilots have to flying Air Canada aircraft and passengers.

What do you think our current CEO would do if we let that happen?

If we're going to review history, let's not rewrite what actually happened.

Windowseat wrote:
Air Canada’s restructuring after it entered into CCAA was a very complex process (and not well understood by most employees or the unions) which required the simultaneous agreement of numerous parties. In addition to the complex corporate reorganization and debt compromises, the closing also included a new equity infusion totaling $1.1 billion as well as significant new credit being extended.

It was the largest write-down of creditor claims ($8.3 billion) in Canadian corporate history. These creditors included shareholders, lenders, leasing companies, etc. This $8.3 billion was converted into equity (ACE shares) at about 10 cents on the dollar. Included in these creditors claims were the unions, including ACPA. ACPA's claim against the company was about $300 million, or 3.6 percent of the $8.3 billion, for the concessions it gave on behalf of the pilots. During the restructuring ACPA received approximately 1.5 million shares of ACE, which they sold shortly after ACE exited CCAA for about $24.00. Hence they missed out on the subsequent return of capital totaling $2 billion.

The largest creditor was GECC who owned 106 aircraft and was the largest lessor. In return for shares in the new ACE, GECC agreed to the restructuring of leases on these 106 aircraft, provide exit capital and provide $1 billion in additional financing for new aircraft (Embraer).

ACE shares were given to the creditors in order to get the majority of them to sign on to the plan of arrangement. Without this, the creditors were free to take their assets, including airplanes, engines, and other assets, and leave Air Canada in a not so desirable situation

Cerberus was part of and, in fact, a very important player in the CCAA process. They, along with GECC and DB provided the $1.1 billion in new equity financing required to get ACE going. Their risk is that they were investing in a bankrupt enterprise with an airline company that even after exiting CCAA, had a cost structure 33 percent higher than its main competitor, WJA.

(Victor Lee was Air Canada’s favoured investor but he walked when the unions would not compromise on pension issues and there was a 300 million shortfall on the $1.1 billion in labour savings. After Lee walked, Cerberus, the only other investor willing to invest in the restructured airline provided the needed capital.)

For this new equity infusion, these three investors received shares in the new ACE and, along with the ACE shares the creditor’s received, became the new owners.

Just prior to exiting CCAA, an independent third party placed valuations on Jazz, Aeroplan and ACTS. The total was about $2.2 billion, and Air Canada received preferred shares for this amount, which they have since cashed in – that’s how Air Canada raised its initial liquidity and also made down payments for new aircraft. In effect, Air Canada sold Jazz, Aeroplan and ACTS to ACE, the new owners.

This was the cost of bankruptcy. Air Canada sold those assets in order to reduce its debt and leasing obligations, and to exit CCAA with new equity to sustain operations and begin to renew its fleet. Contrary to what many people believe, and the Unions say, since exiting CCAA, Air Canada has not paid any dividends to ACE or to Air Canada shareholders. All of Air Canada's profits have been reinvested into Air Canada, largely to fund its fleet renewal and pension liability. In fact, the new Air Canada shareholders have lost 60 percent of their investment. Let's not forget that without the creditors agreeing to keep their assets at Air Canada, and new investors willing to invest their capital, Air Canada wouldn't exist today in its current form, or with pensions intact.

One last point, ACGHS wasn't sold to ACE. It remains a fully owned subsidiary of Air Canada.

Jaques Strappe wrote:
Windowseat

That was a very informative post. Thanks for correcting me. However, it is my understanding that Ceberus did not enter the scene until after CCAA had already been entered, and provided the needed funding to exit CCAA. So really, they did not take a haircut. In fact, they received 2 billion in a payback a few short years later.

Windowseat wrote:

"Jaques"

You are correct in stating that Cerberus did not take a 'haircut.' That was never implied in my response. However, you are incorrect in stating, Cerberus received $2 billion in a payback.

There were two primary goals to the restructuring of Air Canada during CCAA. These were to maximize value for creditors who lost $8.3 billion; and to attract new investors to exit CCAA. Both steps were necessary, and the first step needed to be substantively completed before the second step began. Hence, Cerberus entered later in the CCAA process. Restructuring debt, leasing and other creditor obligations only served to reduce liabilities to a suitable level ($12.3 billion to $4.3 billion).

Remember, Air Canada filed for bankruptcy protection when it was unable to make a $165 million pension payment requested by OSFI. At the time, Air Canada was losing $5 million a day before it entered into CCAA, and had little cash on hand. Bankruptcy was inevitable; it was only a matter of time.

It is important to understand that Air Canada’s restructuring would not have been completed without new equity to enable the new enterprise to operate on a sustainable basis (i.e. sufficient liquidity) and to acquire new aircraft. In fact, the raising of $1.1 billion in new equity capital, a substantial amount of capital by any measure, was one of the largest passenger air carrier equity raises in history.

Cerberus is a hedge fund that typically invests in distressed companies (like Air Canada during CCAA), companies that institutional and most other investors won’t go near. Like it or not, Cerberus was the only investor willing to invest in ACE after Victor Lee walked, but at a substantially lower level of investment (DB made up the difference). Cerberus was only one of the three investors that provided capital while the company was in CCAA. An IPO offering also took place in 2005, after ACE exited CCAA, which provided ACE with an additional $800,000,000 in capital.

The $2 billion reduction in capital that was returned to ALL ACE shareholders (not just Cerberus) should be seen in the context of the following ACE capital fundraising: The $1.1 billion raised in Sept 2004; the public offering of $800,000,000 completed in April 2005; and a $152 million gain on the sale of US airways. No money left ACE in the payout. ACE shareholders were given shares in Jazz and Aeroplan, which they (not Air Canada) now owned. This was ACE’s way of unlocking value in the enterprise, and compensating the original creditors for agreeing to sign onto the plan of arrangement, and new investors for investing their capital in a high risk venture, as agreed to during CCAA.
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Rockie
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Re: Air Canada and their taxi speed

Post by Rockie »

No worries Old Fella.

It was a sensitive subject when we were still able to have some control, but we're past that point now and I'm all for giving everybody a rest until the recrimination stage starts. When that occurs I'm going to try very hard to stay out of it and just be an observer sitting figuratively in a patio chair along with you watching the show and eating a bowl of popcorn.

:wink:
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Re: Air Canada and their taxi speed

Post by Rockie »

Windowseat

Thanks for that recap. You obviously have not only detailed knowledge of the past process but a much deeper understanding of the financial matters than most including me. Could you please tell me if my layman's brain assessment is more or less accurate:

Air Canada spent many years before CCAA selling the furniture in order to stay afloat in an industry they were apparently unable to sustain a viable business in, and post-CCAA they sold the walls to stay alive.

Would you mind also giving your opinion on the following questions:

1. Is Air Canada capable of running an independently sustainable low cost carrier as a separate brand but still under the Air Canada banner without support from mainline resources or subsidizing it from mainline revenue?

2. If the answer to the above is "yes" what impact will that have on the mainline?

3. If the answer to question 1 is "no" what does Air Canada have to do to make the LCC independently sustainable?
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Old fella
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Re: Air Canada and their taxi speed

Post by Old fella »

Rockie wrote:No worries Old Fella.

It was a sensitive subject when we were still able to have some control, but we're past that point now and I'm all for giving everybody a rest until the recrimination stage starts. When that occurs I'm going to try very hard to stay out of it and just be an observer sitting figuratively in a patio chair along with you watching the show and eating a bowl of popcorn.

:wink:

Me........ beer(and wine) in hand, play-offs just around the corner. Yea go, go - YVR............ boooo YUL...... hisssssss YYZ

Ain't retirement grand
:mrgreen: :drinkers: :partyman:
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Re: Air Canada and their taxi speed

Post by windowseat »

Rockie wrote:Windowseat

Thanks for that recap. You obviously have not only detailed knowledge of the past process but a much deeper understanding of the financial matters than most including me. Could you please tell me if my layman's brain assessment is more or less accurate:

Air Canada spent many years before CCAA selling the furniture in order to stay afloat in an industry they were apparently unable to sustain a viable business in, and post-CCAA they sold the walls to stay alive.

Would you mind also giving your opinion on the following questions:

1. Is Air Canada capable of running an independently sustainable low cost carrier as a separate brand but still under the Air Canada banner without support from mainline resources or subsidizing it from mainline revenue?

2. If the answer to the above is "yes" what impact will that have on the mainline?

3. If the answer to question 1 is "no" what does Air Canada have to do to make the LCC independently sustainable?
Rockie,

I'm no longer in the industry. My only connection to aviation now is avcanada and flyertalk, and the odd flight, so I can't help you on the lcc stuff. As to your first question, it is my understanding that Air Canada was selling assets in an attempt to raise cash. I cannot say how long big red was doing this, but in my opinion, it had the effect of only re-arranging the deck chairs (or cabin seats) as the company headed toward bankruptcy. They had way too much debt.

Finance 101: airlines and debt don't mix well.
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