Single Turbo Otter Info

[4930's]

I am moving up from the ole beaver to a turbo (PT6-35) otter this season. Any info on any quirks, or how it handles, especially docking in high winds would be appreciated. I have had turbine experience and limited piston otter experience.

Thanks for your info.

[Meatservo]

Well, it can be a little challenging at the dock, that's for sure. I guess my advice would be to carry lots of steerage way all the way to the dock. What I mean is, in light winds it's OK to creep up to the dock in beta, come to a stop and step out, but sometimes in an offshore wind you need to swoosh in there with enough speed so the water rudders can swing the tail in, nail the reverse to stop her and leap out and get the tail tied up before the wind can grab the tail and swing the nose over the dock. Really, offshore tailwinds are to be avoided. Always think about what you are going to do and what you are going to tie it to before committing yourself to a docking manoeuvre. Please don't do like the Americans do and shut down and feather the engine to approach the dock like a piston Otter. Why did your employer pay all that extra money for a turbine?

With a wind blowing ONTO the dock, you still need to think about how you are going to get away. The best way is to have the plane parked so that the tail is still hanging out past the aft edge of the dock. That way the wind will tend to push the tail and swivel the plane so the nose points away from the dock. If the whole plane is against the dock, you will have to drag it forwards down the dock, and when the back of the floats clear the dock the tail will swing over it and collect all the cleats with the dock-knocker. Pull the plane back until it starts to swing, then start up and pull out forwards into the wind.

Sometimes with an offshore headwind, the best thing to do might be to approach the upwind side of the dock pointing into the shore, and then to back out. Once stopped you can use ropes to pull the tail broadside onto the dock if you need to, then you can depart by slipping the ropes and sailing away from the dock before starting up. In a way, an offshore wind is OK because you can always sail away from the shore. Onshore winds make approaching the dock easier, but leaving harder.

I flew one of these things one summer with a loaner prop that didn't have blade latches. At first I regarded it as an inconvenience, but now I realise that it forced me to always think about how I was going to leave the dock before even going TO the dock.

THere's more than one way to skin a cat with the turbo Otter. I'm sure others will have good advice here too. One thing: It's an AWESOME aeroplane and will make you a better pilot. You'll love it.

[trey kule]

I am a bit confused here. You have flown a piston otter so I expect you are aware of the differences in such things as how the wind affects you on the water, and climb attitudes from the beaver. The turbine does not inject that many differences.
In any event, your company knows this is transition to a new type, so I am sure they will give you a sesoned instructor and will cover everything . I would not be concerned if you have piston otter time. Just understand that a few things must be done differently.

Now, on a much more serious note about the turbine otter. The little rascals can carry a huge load, and pretty much threaten the twin otter....but.....on a twin otter there is almost always a first officer swamper, and in my bush days, the otter pilot was the only crew member.. Suck up for a swmper...
It makes those long days loading and unloading fuel drums much more enjoyable.

Enjoy the old girl, They really are, in my opinion, the ultimate bush machine, and I say that being a absolute fan of the beaver (piston)

[Bushav8er]

Please don't do like the Americans do and shut down and feather the engine to approach the dock like a piston Otter.

Really?

The turbine does not inject that many differences.

Glad someone else said it. On the water it is no different...it just has more flexibility available in those rare cases where you may want to employ it. An engine is an engine - it turns a prop. Turbine is merely more reliable, and as mentioned, allows more flexibility.

Keep in mind that longer nose can place the prop over the dock, unlike the piston version. You really want to do that, especially when people may be there?

Have fun with it, its a great aircraft!

[seasonaldriver]

meatservo pretty much said it. And I agree with the comment about feathering and shutting down before you get to the dock. I used to do that with a Caravan until someone showed me the light. MUCH better to come to the dock under full control!

One thing I'd like to add. If possible, have someone on the dock release you after the engine has fired up and you have thrust control. Sometimes, if you're all alone, with nobody around to help,you may need to fire it up before you untie it, get the thrust to neutral using the slackness of the one rope that you've left tied as a reference, carefully leap out, untie, and leap back in. Then you can get away from the dock with control. Much better if there is someone around to help, but sometimes you do what ya gotta do.

Also, because you have beta you can come in to the dock in control, with a small tailwind. Gotta love that turbine!

Does your plane have the expanded rear fueltank? It can be tricky to get that thing full. Use reduced flow on the fuel hose, it will take time, but it's the only way.

Have fun!

[Meatservo]

Please don't do like the Americans do and shut down and feather the engine to approach the dock like a piston Otter.

Really?

Yeah, really. I used to fly to some of the same places as the Wilderness North boys, and they all used to shut down and feather and coast to the dock, just as if they were in a piston Otter. One time I was on their dock and saw the guy who checked ME out on the Turbo, now working for WN, do the same thing in an offshore wind, struggling to drag the tail around to tie it up and hollering for a dockhand to help him out. I asked him why he didn't approach with power like he taught me to, and he told me the (american) owner expressly forbade it. A firing offense, apparently, to use engine power to approach the dock.

I encountered this phenomenon again in Armstrong sometime later, again going to a camp formerly serviced by Wilderness North. The dockhand there said, after I came in, "you are NOT to come to the dock with the engine running". I told him to get in the back and start chucking fish tubs before I threw him in the lake.

Later, when I moved to the west coast to fly Turbo Otters, I saw the Kenmore Air Otter pilots approaching the dock in Victoria the same way. Shut down, feather, coast to the dock. It really does seem to be an American thing. Granted, they never seemed to screw up, but I have been flying the turbo Otter since 1998 and I've tried it both ways, and coming in under power is easier and therefore safer, as long as you don't swing the nose over the dock, like you point out in the one part of your post above that isn't sneering or condescending. Actually that part was condescending too. Personalities are ever-changing works of art, though, so I don't hold you too responsible for yours.

One other thing I feel like mentioning to the original poster, I was always told that the 118-knot VMO is due to a tendency for tailplane flutter, therefore I have always resisted the temptation to allow the plane to go faster. It certainly can go faster, especially on wheels, but it's a pretty serious issue. There have been some incidents involving flutter, and this is brought up every now and then when someone has an accident in a Turbo Otter. I guess this is pretty obvious advice, "don't exceed VMO", as if you would, but that's why it's so low, and you do really need to watch it. The airspeed indicators should all be re-coloured to reflect this, but I have seen one or two still with their yellow zone and higher redline. I believe on the old ones, the yellow arc starts at 118 knots, but I don't have one here to look at.

[Bushav8er]

Sorry, didn't intend to sound condescending.

The point I'm trying to make is I've never found it necessary to motor to the dock except in rare situations - not that I've never done it - I just consider it the 'exception' rather than the 'rule'. 1000's of pistons don't have trouble docking without reverse, beta or feather. I consider them as 'nice to have' if you need them, but not 100% of the time. Are you talking feathered but running, or actually driving it to the dock every time?

I'm curious just want understand your point for motoring in this case -

in an offshore wind, struggling to drag the tail around to tie it up

The wind in either case would be grabbing the tail when trying to tie. Not being a twin, how does running help?

Sounds more like two schools of thought, and to each his own, neither being incorrect.

I'm open to new ideas, may even change if what you say makes sense. What are your reasons for making motoring to the dock the 'rule'?

[Meatservo]

Sorry to have sounded aggressive. The reason I like to approach the dock in beta is that you can come in faster, with way on the rudders, and stop the plane with reverse in the spot you want. I find the coasting-in method results in lower speed when you arrive at the dock, and the wind has been doing its thing to the tail for that much longer. I wish I could explain my point with hand gestures here, trying to put it into words is laborious. I guess what I mean is that the ability to stop where you want without having to slow down much first comes in handy, especially when you're trying to get a large plane into a small spot on a crowded dock, or in places that don't have a dock, be able to creep up to the shore slowly and have a look, and back out if it doesn't look good. Also, when you're going into a spot where there might be an obstacle in front of you and you might have to back out, it's very nice indeed to have the blade latches, and if you try to shut down on the latches before you get to the dock, you might kill a lot of the forward movement you need to get to the dock. There are all kinds of reasons you are better off to have your blades latched when leaving the dock and I think it would be difficult to latch them out in the water and still have enough speed left to take you to the dock.

I grant you, in a piston Otter you can't do any of this, and the sailing skills needed to manoeuvre one around the dock are important to learn, but why not also take advantage of the capabilities of the plane you have? I'm not even mentioning the times a guy might not like the look of his approach to the dock and decide to back off and try again from a different angle.

For an inexperienced guy, the turbine give a safety margin in tricky docking situations over the piston Otter, and for an experienced guy, the turbine allows you to get to places in situations where you might be out of luck in a piston Otter.

I used to fly turbo Otters in northern places where there weren't very many docks at all, and some places where the "dock" was nothing more than two trees shoved into the water, and I loved being able to go up to it, stop, and back out again, or, "drive" in faster than you normally would, use the speed to give the rudders one last kick, stop the plane using the engine and shut down and get out while the tail was still swinging towards the dock instead of away from it. Then I flew it in the city and had to go into docks between boats, other planes, pilings, etc. Again it was nice to be able to swoosh in and stop in exactly the right spot. OR, very occasionally, it came in very handy to be able to hold position facing into the wind, and use the control surfaces to "sail" the plane in the traditional fashion with the rudders up, and steer back into your spot. Having the engine running allows you to control the speed at which the plane sails downwind.

The only times I really docked using the "piston" technique were when the wind was light or there were idiots on the dock who looked like they might not be bright enough to stay away from the propeller. Or when I wanted to come in with as little fuss as possible, like on a nice calm morning. I guess both techniques are appropriate. I used to fly on the weekends to many of the same places in a piston Beaver and boy did I sometimes wish I had the turbine.

[supercub7]

I like to feather the otter and coast into the dock in most situations. In high winds blowing onto or alongside the dock beta is a handy tool to use. If the wind is offshore I always feather.Why? If a gust should catch your tail you are endangering people on the dock. Also your engine is toast if you have a prop strike in beta.

[Meatservo]

Well, I guess it's not just an American thing. What do you know, I learned something. Never hit a dock or chopped up a person in 14 years though. Also, people should get off the dock when the plane is coming. I guess whoever you end up working for will tell you what they think is best, the two places I worked at, using power to dock is the norm, and I always found it safer to do so. As for the prop hitting the dock, if you are competent, you avoid that situation. It's never been an issue for me, and I have a lot of time on these machines, in a lot of situations. I guess if you are flying for a camp operator, and all the docks are set up for piston machines, then there should be no issue feathering before arriving at the dock.

Additionally, I would be the first person to criticize them, but I figure Harbour Air has been flying them long enough to have it figured out, and they dock the way I described. I know they have some really green hands, but they also have some pretty old salts, and they all do it the same way. If you think you've invented some great new way to handle a turbo otter, or you've learned your way from watching Americans, I think it's cool as long as you get the job done. Anything goes, really, unless you chop a person up or fail to hit the dock and wind up smashing the plane into stuff. Defer to your best judgement. All Otters went to the dock the same way before they started putting turbines on them, and it worked well enough then too, as long as you were good at it.

[Bushav8er]

We agreed in the end. The conditions you describe, particularly the no dock cases, are the ones that I would do as you do. Stopping on the latches I try not to do but only because the prop spins for a long time which adds a degree of risk, but again, there are cases.

Different schools, neither wrong.

The situation I think is the most difficult is a strong off-shore wind. Plan ahead and if possible even park on an end (of a dock) into wind, or take a swamper. Leaving a dock with a strong on-shore wind is the other. This is a case where starting, in feather, while tied is useful. It allows the engine to be ready as soon as you are in to get away quickly.

Careful reversing with the water rudders down.

Flutter. This is more apt to occur and will occur to some degree, when hauling external loads - so be alert. I heard a different reason for the VNE restriction, the piston version is rated higher, same airframe firewall back but regardless....never exceed it.

The biggest things with the turbine Otter...don't forget the intake plug, watch the engine limits - you have mere seconds before its 'toast'.

Overall its an easy aircraft and most certainly a fun aircraft to fly - except you'll be loading/unloading more and become a member of the Otter Back Club.

[phillyfan]

Watch out if you are backing up and looking out the door. If you go from reverse to forward, the door will close with great force. Better to just open the window and stick your head out.

[Meatservo]

Good one. I saw a guy almost knock himself out and fall out of the cockpit because of that. I did the same thing to myself in a turbo-beaver. It hurts!

This goes for piston otters AND turbo -otters, but you'll find that because you can go backwards, you'll probably be raising and lowering the water rudders a lot more often, like if you're trying to jimmy onto a beach in shallow water. Don't drop the rudder retracting handle, or the weight of the rudders boinging around will make a cable jump off a pulley, and then: no rudders. Also if you touch bottom while going backward with the rudders down, they are very easy to damage.

[4930's]

Some good points. Thanks for the info.

[180]

What scenario gives you more control when parking your car:

1. Coasting into a spot in neutral, with the engine shut off, with no brakes, no gas, no power steering?

Or,

2. Driving into a spot with the engine on, with functioning brakes, gas, and steering?

Fred and Barney used to brake their car with their bare feet until technology gave them a better option. Why not stack the deck in your favour whenever possible?

[oldncold]

whow there/ shut down and coastin in is the safe thing to do if you have got short dock a bunch of toursits standing in the way .the lodge owners dont like there guests safety endangered even if it there own stupidity . especially with the high dollar exchange

using beta and rrrrreverse is awesome, and back at base with a knowledgeable dock hand it is a hoot //that said that prop is invisable to many, and the sound can be loud so in tight quarters all the yelling to get the hell out the way doesnt mean a damn.
I have seen guest come running up in front to grab the rope when put the left or right nose of the on the edge of the dock . they mean well but scared the s..out of me every had an ornge in the map pocket and had to throw it at him to get backout of the way.

docking on floats is like a first date you know the rules and how to do it ,yet every once in awhile it doesnt go as you had planned /

congrats n fly safe

[Northern Flyer]

What scenario gives you more control when parking your car:

1. Coasting into a spot in neutral, with the engine shut off, with no brakes, no gas, no power steering?

Or,

2. Driving into a spot with the engine on, with functioning brakes, gas, and steering?

Fred and Barney used to brake their car with their bare feet until technology gave them a better option. Why not stack the deck in your favour whenever possible?

I agree totally. I've flown the otter with a -34 and the Garrett and always dock under power, with and without someone on the dock to catch the plane. Passengers did not have access to the docks until the aircraft was shut down and we were ready to load them however.

[180]

Fact is, the prop of the -3T hangs out past the tips of the floats, so be very careful around the docks.

The docking with power on or off debate could rage for days and probably deserves it's own thread. I stand by the opinion that you have more options and more control docking with the big spinny thing spinning.

By the way, the CDN and US dollar have been at or near par for over 2 years now...

[geodoc]

With regard to Americans shutting down and coasting to the dock:

In the case of Kenmore's operations in Victoria Harbour, my understanding is that it is largely on account of noise abatement. There are a lot of places they fly into where noise complaints are a serious issue (Seattle, San Juan Islands). So where ever and whenever possible, they shut down prior to hitting the dock.

When I flew for HA, noise abatement didn't seem to be a particular priority.

[Meatservo]

It didn't when I flew for them, either. For the record, noise abatement isn't particularly a priority with me now, either. I think this has been a good thread. I would like to concede that as a sailboat sailor in my spare time, nothing impresses me more than someone who can sail on/off their mooring and/or dock without the help of an engine. It takes quite a bit of practice to learn and is an awesome demonstration of skill in tricky conditions. I think the same goes for seaplane pilots, and I admire people who can do it and make it look easy, especially in an Otter. Using power at the dock, however, is the way I always handled the Turbo Otter unless conditions were relatively benign, unless of course there was the helpful-tourist-infested dock situation. I guess being a good stick means knowing ALL the techniques and using the right one at the right time, in accordance with your abilities. One thing I find difficult to tolerate is working for someone who tries to absolutely forbid you from using one or the other technique regardless of circumstance.

I thought of one other thing, nice to know, although you should pick up on that during your training: Don't "blow" that centre tank! The engine doesn't eat out of the other ones!

[180]

Noise abatement vs safety could be another independent thread. (For maneuvering at the docks and for take offs...)

As for the Kenmore docks in Victoria, Stevie Wonder could dock an Otter comfortably at their dock. On the other side of the noisy coin, the Harbour Air guys don't have near as much wiggle room on their little piece of timber in Vic-town, so I can understand why noise abatement isn't their primary agenda. The HA docks in Coal Harbour and YVR are almost equally as tight, especially when you have to parallel park in between a couple of machines with the wind blowing or the Fraser's current ripping. Same goes for the Butchard Gardens show...

Other than Nanaimo on a quiet day, most of HA's docks are way too tight to let noise abatement trump maximum control in very tight and tricky circumstances.

I always try to shut down on the latches because when you fire up again, you're in "neutral" and don't get those 5-10 seconds of uncontrollable forward thrust. Doesn't much matter if you're tied up to the dock, but if you're beached, or drifting, be prepared for close to 10 seconds of froward thrust without any option for reverse.

Truly an amazing plane though. You'll have fun and learn to love it for sure.

[1000 HP]

Watch out if you are backing up and looking out the door. If you go from reverse to forward, the door will close with great force. Better to just open the window and stick your head out.

HaHa! I got caught twice with the door. Apparently my aviation doctor says I am cock-eyed now

[180]

True that! I almost knocked myself out my first day of training. I think it's a right of passage to almost decapitate yourself learning how to beach 'er. Just open the window!