Pilot pay

[Cat Driver]

I sort of sit in the weeds these days and try and stay out of trouble here.

However reading all the emotion I see in the ongoing discussions about what pilots should be paid I would like to have an intelligent discussion on what the job should pay.

I will start by saying I do not really think the size of the airplane should be the determining factor, although it has a direct bearing due to the income the bigger airplanes generate.

Anyhow here I am bored out of what ever mind I have left.

[Jack In The Box]

Starting FO wage (any) 30 K. No bond. More if on call 24/7 for medevacs.

First job captain pay (any) 60 K. No bond. Again, more if on call for medevacs.

Airlines, 55K or so for a first years wage would be reasonable. Again no bond.

[Cat Driver]

Good start, but there would need to be company perks such as self managed retirement plans. and medical coverage plans.

[Dutchpilotguy]

Depends where you live, and of course this would be a function of what the company thinks that's worth...

I see some merit in the suggested pay scale, but Some perks for different types should be considered I would think. Maybe even just a premium system like an extra $2/hr to be on the next higher type, but again that's sort of subjective and is merely an example of the thought.

Truth be told: pay will always be a problem until there's a mass pilots union, and even then... Well... Look at union workers sometimes. It still wouldn't be enough

[Trim Spinner]

What ever happened to a market-oriented system determining the optimum level of pay for a job? These socialist pre-determined pays for generalized job titles across an industry worry me deeply.

[Gessle64]

mass pilots union

I wish we could do that. We pilots seem to complain about our conditions alot, but when it comes down to it, there's no real solidarity. As long as pilots think it's OK to take the Kraft Dinner job because it pads the logbook, we're not going to stand together. Most pilots I come across would just rather keep their heads down and accept what conditions they have.
If ever a pilot gets the couillons to try to start a union, watch the coworker friends scatter. They'll back your idea in chit chat until they see you actually going forward with it.

[flyinthebug]

mass pilots union

I wish we could do that. We pilots seem to complain about our conditions alot, but when it comes down to it, there's no real solidarity. As long as pilots think it's OK to take the Kraft Dinner job because it pads the logbook, we're not going to stand together. Most pilots I come across would just rather keep their heads down and accept what conditions they have.
If ever a pilot gets the couillons to try to start a union, watch the coworker friends scatter. They'll back your idea in chit chat until they see you actually going forward with it.

A "Union" will never address the real problems in our industry but a well organized "college or association" would.

As for wages...heres my idea of a fair wage...

PA31, C421, etc First Officer 25K/ Captain 40K plus (50K for SPIFR)

King Air, B99, etc First Officer 30K plus...Captain 60K plus.

B1900D, Metro, EMB110 etc First Officer 40K ...Captain 80K plus

Dash8-RJ etc.. First Officer 50K ...Captain 100K

Airlines First Officer 60K plus (start)
Captain 150K plus to start.

Float drivers is a different animal.... C180/185 driver 3000$ a month plus accomodations.

DHC2/3- $5500 a month plus accomodations

DHC6/ DHC3T etc $7500 a month plus perks.

With regular reviews and upgrades, it would make for a comfortable living if our industry was this way. Imagine if we had a College or association that actually helped ensure these wages were "standards" rather than a deviation from the norm. A group of our peers that would stand up for the new pilots coming into the industry. These changes wouldnt occur overnight, but if we worked hard at it now, we would start to see some benefits in the 1st 5 years...and after 15-20 years, it would completely change the industry for the better. Im not talking about another toothless level of bureaucracy, but a legitimate College (much like Doctors, Lawyers and Teachers enjoy)...run by our peers and FOR our peers and colleagues. Its not impossible and if more of us would come together on this issue and recognize the dire need for a College of Pilots, maybe more of us would get behind the current group trying to achieve just that. These men and ladies are volunteering their time and money to forward this cause...knowing that they will see little or no return for their investment (personally) but they realize in 20 years the industry will be far better off from their efforts now. If we want wages that are livable and an industry we can once again be proud of, then I would suggest we TRY to get behind the leaders of the new College being proposed and assist rather than chastize them and attack their efforts. They are doing all this for us, and not one single person on the board stands to gain a single dime or even recognition for their efforts. Their only agenda is to make things better for the current and next generation of pilots coming up. I would ask everyone to please take a 2nd look at the college thread and their proposal...and then hope for some positive feedback and support.

My 2 cents, Fly safe all.

[flyinthebug]

Good start, but there would need to be company perks such as self managed retirement plans. and medical coverage plans.

Cat, this is exactly what the new "college" is proposing. They want an insurance package that follows the pilot from operator to operator, rather then having to change everytime you change companies. Some of us have worked at a dozen or more air services over our careers (some even more) and had to adjust our insurances accordingly. If we had a policy offered through the college, it would offer these same things you have just asked about. We would have to get behind the college before anything could start to take shape, but I do know this is high on their list of priorities...to provide an insurance option to ALL CPL`s in the industry & their families.
Fly safe.

[Trim Spinner]

Where do you all come up with these arbitrary numbers?

You know what an acceptable pay is? It's the pay that I freely accept when I decide to work for a company. Here's a surprise: no one is forcing you to work at a job you don't feel is paying you fairly.

[flyinthebug]

Where do you all come up with these arbitrary numbers?

You know what an acceptable pay is? It's the pay that I freely accept when I decide to work for a company. Here's a surprise: no one is forcing you to work at a job you don't feel is paying you fairly.

I am in complete agreement with allowing a free market system to dictate wages via supply & demand. I am offering these numbers as a general idea of where the pay scales should be (give or take depending on company, ac flown, length of service etc). The numbers I submitted to this thread are just my personal opinion of where wages should be as a "goal" for the industry. I do NOT believe in a socialist society where every job has a pre determined worth. I agree with your comment above, but offered these numbers in keeping with the thread.

[CanadianEh]

Where do you all come up with these arbitrary numbers?

You know what an acceptable pay is? It's the pay that I freely accept when I decide to work for a company. Here's a surprise: no one is forcing you to work at a job you don't feel is paying you fairly.

That is correct, Troll. And so the race to the bottom continues at mach 0.89.

The day will hopefully come when the law supply and demand tips the scale in our favour.

[KAG]

What ever the pay is it needs to be indexed as inflation is forever increasing while wages have stalled out for years if not decades.

[reality check]

Until the industry starts charging reasonable rates for the use of airplanes, acceptable and even progressive wages or benefits across the profession are a pipe dream. As has been said many times here, it's a race to the bottom atm.

The bulk model where the number of fleet hours flown is supposed to compensate for appallingly low rates does not work. We know this, it has been proven many times over the years, yet companies still sell jobs to pilots saying "We pay less, but you'll fly more." And it works. The airlines are shooting themselves in the foot at every turn, contracts for gov't work are handed out to the lowest bidders, often with sub-par machinery, and in the bush operators will undercut each other at any given opportunity. It is not a recipe for success.

Flying is not a right, it's a privilege. Unfortunately most operators allow themselves to be pushed around by the customer like no self-respecting heavy equipment, crane, or truck operator ever would, not to mention dentists (anyone every cancel a dentist appt on short notice?). There are too many people at all levels of our industry who go to work each day with stars in their eyes for this ever to attain a level of self respect.

Until we stop treating our new people like slaves, this will not change. Until we stop accepting mediocrity, this will not change. Until we have Regulator who actually regulates, this will not change. Until the the idea of quality trumps that of quantity, this will not change. But, don't hold your breath, I think the bus has already left the station.

PS Thanks to Trim Spinner for so nicely proving the point.

[Trim Spinner]

Who gets to decide what a reasonable rate is? You? The government? It's funny that you complain about the rates not being "reasonable", but then soon after go on to say that flying is a right, not a privilege. Well almost: it's actually an agreement. One where people agree to exchange money for a service. And you know what they pay for it? What they consider a reasonable amount. The consumer is free to decide on his accord whether it is a reasonable rate. You know what else is an agreement, and not a right? You agreeing to work for a flying job. You are free to decide what a reasonable rate is for your time in a cockpit. That's the beauty of the market system.

I hate to break it to you, but new pilots are a dime a dozen. They all have similar qualifications and thus only qualify for certain jobs. This is why these jobs can pay lower amounts: their labor supply is large. Some people cry about it. Others do something about it. They increase their worth to companies in order to attain a higher value on the labor market. It's just like any industry. The only ones that can get away with demanding artificially high labor rates are those in Public Labor Unions - because the demand is so inelastic and the industry is monopolistic and cannot go bankrupt (your taxes take the hit, enjoy).

But what are the alternatives? If you increase the cost of labor in a pilot market, a few things will happen. Pilot unemployment will increase as companies can't afford to employ as many pilots. Industry efficiency will decrease, reducing the demand for our services. We will all suffer as a whole.

I'll say it again: if you are not happy with how you are getting paid, leave your job. Find another job. Maybe find a job outside of aviation. No one is forcing you to stay.

[Cat Driver]

How much a year would a Bell 206 pilot be worth flying less than 200 hours a year for a private corporation trim spinner?

Mostly in the summer with long periods free to do whatever in the winter.

[Trim Spinner]

I'm not sure what is so unclear about this Cat.

He would be worth exactly what he and the company both agree on.

Just like a painting is only worth $1,000,000 if someone else agrees to pay that much for it.

[Cat Driver]

Thanks for the opinion trim spinner.

Are you this vague in your day to day thinking process if you do actually fly for someone?

[Trim Spinner]

If you think I'm being vague, ask me to clarify a point. Otherwise your own attack is, ironically, vague.

Also, may I suggest you crack open an economics textbook?

[Trim Spinner]

Also, if you're expecting me to give a number, you're entirely missing the point.

And I do fly for someone. A national carrier. And hey, I'm very happy with what I get paid - because if I wasn't, I wouldn't be here.

[Redneck_pilot86]

Trim Spinner makes a good point, you can't just put an arbitrary number on a job and thats it. The problem with the industry is that pilots accept these low wages, therefore they are the right wage.

[Beefitarian]

How much would a Bell 206 pilot be worth flying less than 200 hours a year for a private corporation trim spinner?

Mostly in the summer with long periods free to do whatever in the winter.

500!

[Cat Driver]

The reason I asked about the Bell 206 pay was to point out that different types of flying by its very nature and based on the law of supply and demand will have a different value pay wise.

For instance, flying as a F.O. for a major carrier on their smaller equipment will have a different pay scale than flying single pilot on a Bell 206, and of course will have far different specific skills requirements.

I am not an expert on economics but I do have some understanding of pilots and what they are worth in different types of flying.

So back to whatever this thread brings.

[Trim Spinner]

The reason I asked about the Bell 206 pay was to point out that different types of flying by its very nature and based on the law of supply and demand will have a different value pay wise.

For instance, flying as a F.O. for a major carrier on their smaller equipment will have a different pay scale than flying single pilot on a Bell 206, and of course will have far different specific skills requirements.

This is entirely correct. I fail to see the problem with that. The market allows people to fall into their niches, and is the most efficient way to distribute resources - including labor resources.

[Jack In The Box]

Good start, but there would need to be company perks such as self managed retirement plans. and medical coverage plans.

Of course, the medical and dental benefits were a given.

As for retirement plans...that's a give or take thing. Something I'm honestly not hung up about-I'd rather invest my money somewhere solid then in a failing airline anyway.

[star57]

Well...let me give my 2 cents, before I go on please note that I'm not a Commercial pilot, just private.
I'm glad that I did not pursue aviation when I was young, finished my PPL at 52, I guess that gives me some life experience.
Enough about me, and let's talk about how things can change.
First, pilots need to get recognition as professionals, just like Engineers, Dentists and Doctors...after all it takes longer to be hired as a 747 driver than it takes to get an engineering degree.
Pilots need the authority to issue pilot licenses, not TC !.
When was the last time XYZ Oil told the Dentists how much they can charge for a root canal, but they will expect someone to sit on the right seat of the corporate jet for 40k.
Today in Calgary a young lad with a petroleum Engineiring degree starts at 104.000.00, he goes to the gym or bar at 5pm and sleeps every night at home.
If the Industry wants change it has to believe in it...a professional association with teeth, an association that will state that a pilot starts at 60k for the first X amount of hours...say 2000 and significant increases after that.
The Industry has accepted SMS, why not create a CCPA, Canadian Comercial Pilots Association and create it's own standards and it's own professional conduct rules and policies, demand the right to issue Pilots licenses and supervise it's own members.
Be the master of your own destiny.
You are not any less than a Dentist, Engineer or Architect...unless you believe that you are.