Online VNCs for flight planning

[kamikaze]

I was an early Android adopter and tried to make a GA app for it, but quickly ran up against the availability of data issue. Even after scrounging from whatever resources I could find, it was pretty problematic and I gave up.

So, the question is, after seeing their reply ... how does one become an "approved party"?

[CpnCrunch]

A couple of other options:

[1] Get the user to scan and calibrate their VNC. Works well (I did this for years with MapviewGPS), but is a pain in the ass.

[2] Create your own overlay on top of google maps, i.e. create a database of airfields, controlled airspace and obstructions. This would be a lot of work (maybe make it open-source and let registered users edit the data on a website?) Also you'd need to be careful to not open yourself up to liability for bad data. Once you've got the data, it's relatively easy creating Android, iPad and iPhone apps to display it on top of google maps.

[Edi]

In some ways I like how the US does it.
US... The government collects stuff (say imagery/maps, etc) and its available to the public. Under the premise that they have already paid for it. So it is not really right for citizens to pay for it a second time.

FAA is governement's and Nav Canada is private company. That's the difference.

[kamikaze]

"Create your own overlay on top of google maps, i.e. create a database of airfields, controlled airspace and obstructions. This would be a lot of work (maybe make it open-source and let registered users edit the data on a website?)"

I thought of doing that ... there already are a number of sources, the problem is the quality of the data. Ultimately, the best data will always come from NavCanada (not perfect, but the best around). If you want a reliable application, you need it based on reliable data.

I considered creating a Open Source Digital CFS, where one would at the very least replicate the CFS data on a web site, and there would be some built-in workflow with volunteer data checkers and such. It would still take years to get a good database though.

I also considered writing a DAH parser, to create some shapefiles of all the airspace ...

I'm just not sure the Canadian GA community has the internet tech savviness or critical mass to support such endeavours in an open fashion, and it would be even less likely to work as a commercial endeavour.

[kamikaze]

"FAA is governement's and Nav Canada is private company. That's the difference."

A valid point. Even as a private entity, they could still make money from software as a service, data services, simple, mass appeal datasets, etc ... the potential is there, and it would not necessarily cost them that much more to bundle existing products in slightly different ways ... they're completely ignoring a market segment ...

[wowo]

I wonder who their "approved parties" are? This is something I am definitely considering pursuing.

My Android app is ready for beta testing if anyone is interested. The APK can be found here: http://forum.naviatorapp.com/viewtopic.php?id=2

Unfortunately all the non American data comes from unofficial data sources, but I've added it to the database anyways. Use it at your own risk!

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[PunkStarStudios]

So, not good news. Nav Canada is not keen on releasing copyrights to anyone except for "approved vendors." Here is the reply I got:

NAV CANADA is legislatively responsible for the provision of all aeronautical data, and therefore cannot grant permission for the redistribution of this information to a non-approved party.

Our Aeronautical Publications department is currently exploring options with approved vendors who provide aviation applications on Personal Electronic Devices such as the iPad. This is in an effort to have our maps available to customers in an electronic format for both navigation and flight planning purposes. We hope to have agreements in place with these vendors and a product available for customers by summer 2011.

If you have any further questions please feel free to contact me.

Regards,

I have inquired about how to become an "approved vendor" and am awaiting a reply. The good news is that there may be some digital maps available soon from other suppliers, though I'm not going to hold my breath on the "summer 2011" promise.

I can tell you that we have first hand knowledge in this area with Nav Canada and they are NOT afraid of the internet or electronic distribution. All I can say is that there are a lot of legal/liability issues behind the scenes that are being explored and fleshed out, but things are moving along in the right direction.

[kamikaze]

Having worked in the geospatial world, I understand the concerns around liability with data ... but that is addressable through legal work (agreements, disclaimers, standards, etc ...).

So long as you have a means by which to confirm that someone getting your data has agreed to certain conditions (not that hard), then it's OK.

You can put conditions on not altering the base data for instance (you are given rights to use but not modify) ... that would already be a great start.

Also, although DRM technology is frowned upon when it comes to popular media (music, movies), this is a niche market where it may very well have its place.

You'd think they could make a site where you could login, agree to the EULA, and download a dataset ... DRMed somehow even (though I'm not sure of the maturity of the technology in that area).

[Posthumane]

I can tell you that we have first hand knowledge in this area with Nav Canada and they are NOT afraid of the internet or electronic distribution. All I can say is that there are a lot of legal/liability issues behind the scenes that are being explored and fleshed out, but things are moving along in the right direction.

I'm glad to hear that they are, and I realize that liability is a huge driver these days. However, I was simply asking for permission to put up scans of their paper charts, which should have already been checked for accuracy and don't pose any more liability issues by being available online. That's my take on it, anyway. I may still make my scans available to friends/family (who probably have the paper charts anyway), but it's too bad I can't have it available for the general public.

[ragbagflyer]

Anybody make any progress on this front in the last year? Does anybody have any scanned VNC's? Post or PM me if you do please. I'd like to get them running on the ipad.

[AirFrame]

I make an annual plea to NavCanada for an update on this topic. Each year for the past 7 years I have received the same answer: We don't have the data in a format we can distribute it digitally. When I point out that they do have the CFS in digital form on their CD subscription, they get evasive and claim they don't have an online system capable of selling that data. Like their digital publications purchasing page, perhaps?

It's extremely frustrating. Having web experience, i've offered to work for them to set something up. They're not interested. They're deathly afraid, as someone else pointed out, of the meager revenue stream they have turning into a zero revenue stream. What's unfortunate, is that it *will* happen. If they don't get started, someone else will take over and make their own data set and their own map set, and offer it as a competitor to NavCanada's maps. The demand in the market is just too large to deny it.

If I could raise the venture capital, i'd consider doing it myself.

[CpnCrunch]

Garmin already has their own data for Canada, and there are other (cheap) apps such as Air Navigation Pro that have their own data. You'll still need a VNC as a backup and for flight-planning, but if you have any type of Garmin aviation GPS device, it's good enough to use for navigation (I haven't tried Air Navigation Pro, so I can't comment on how accurate its data is).

[seasonaldriver]

Just to throw my 2 cents in, I use a Garmin 530 every day in the summer and I keep noticing missing data such as power lines (that have been there for 7 years) and misspelled names of lakes and rivers among other things. I bet the IFR info is right on but for us mostly VFR types the maps are low res and with the missing data could even be hazardous on the wrong day. I've even emailed them and nothing happened in the next edition a year later.

[AirFrame]

And when you consider that many (most?) VFR pilots don't fly with current databases in their handhelds...

(Ah, yes, Mr. Inspector, you see, that bracket is for a "music player", not a GPS... What? No, I don't seem to have it with me right now, sorry...)

[CpnCrunch]

In my own experience, Garmin is much more accurate than Nav Canada (past errors include completely missing bit of highway 2 + incorrect airspace around YBW on the Calgary VNC+ completely fucked up co-ords for the Calgary reporting points, including putting PetroCan in the middle of the friggin pacific ocean!) Nav canada is piss poor, and just wasting everyone's time and money.

[kamikaze]

"Does anybody have any scanned VNC's"

That would be a copyright violation ... so don't expect to find any any time soon. We're not talking about MP3's here ...

[Tanker299]

iPhone app (works on iPad) "Canadian Topographic Maps" 4inch to the mile maps with location services. all free. Also has airstrips that are not/ have been removed from the CFS. 4inch kicks the crap out of 8inch vnc's

[kamikaze]

Very old data, I would NEVER use that for flying ... and yes I can say that, I used to work on it and with it ...

[AirFrame]

iPhone app (works on iPad) "Canadian Topographic Maps" 4inch to the mile maps with location services. all free. Also has airstrips that are not/ have been removed from the CFS. 4inch kicks the crap out of 8inch vnc's

Can you download the maps for offline use? My GPS works great in flight, but I don't always have a 3G connection...

[Tanker299]

You download the maps you need and they work offline. As my mentor told me the Mountians have not moved. The difference between the current DND paper maps is 0 (where I am). There are no power lines up here and there has not been a new road in 40 years. Might not be so great in the south, plus VNCs are far from perfect. I still always carry current paper charts, I would only ever use an I pad as a reference.