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Green Onions
 Post subject: Upgrade
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:03 am 
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Anyone want to take a guess at the current time to upgrade for a new hire right now? I know they used to say 10-12 years, but with the focus on the regional for the next few years atleast, is it going to be more like 15... maybe more?

More and more guys seem to want to stay longer now... a current Jazz pilot is fighting to work past 65, and not in the right seat.

What are new hires being told right now?


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loopa
 Post subject: Re: Upgrade
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:08 am 
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I thought I heard it was 7 years and performance based a few years back? Not sure about 12 years?


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Joe Blow Schmo
 Post subject: Re: Upgrade
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:34 pm 
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How long was it for the guys who are upgrading now?


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palm90
 Post subject: Re: Upgrade
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:29 pm 
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Right now it's at 6.5 years. With very little hireing on the horizon, it will be 8 years for the next 60 or so guys.


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Legacy
 Post subject: Re: Upgrade
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:34 pm 
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No way to tell precisely. It definitely longer than 6.5 years. There are guys that are there for 6 years and still at LEAST a year away from upgrade.


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KAG
 Post subject: Re: Upgrade
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:14 pm 
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If I were a prospective pilot, I would have the mind set to enjoy your well paid low responsibility position in the right seat for a looong time. We will have retirements, possibility of bigger machines, but as It stands today who knows. That could change either way depending on too many variables:economy, open skies, expansions, wide bodies, ETC.
So have a realistic expectation when you apply and you won't be disappointed.


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fundi
 Post subject: Re: Upgrade
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:30 am 
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is the upgrade timeline the biggest issue, or just one of?

It was, and still would be my deciding factors;
1. Most stable flying job in Canada; job security
2. Great schedule
3. Pay is pretty good; the savings program with the company's match is top in Canada
4. Management works with us to keep it a good working atmosphere
5. Its not stressful, and we even have fun at work, imagine!
6. Its going somewhere; not stagnant. Things are always changing...generally for the better

ok, ok, I had my fill of coolaid today. There was a whole lot of coolaid near the Q400 today; interesting times!!


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Bede
 Post subject: Re: Upgrade
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:36 pm 
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I'm guessing 10-12 years to upgrade, anything less is a bonus. However, the pay/lifestyle for those 10-12 years is pretty good. FO's here make about the same as an AC EMB Capt, so it's not bad at all. The skippers are all pretty good to work with too.


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A330
 Post subject: Re: Upgrade
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:27 am 
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Kudos to WJ which has certainly worked out very well for it's people; and it's also great to see another long term option of than A/C, but your comparison of a WJ F/O to an A/C EMB Capt??

I don't know the numbers, but sorry, but that's seems completely unbelievable. An EMB Capt must make well into 6 figures.... and a WJ F/O? Maybe you are making forward assumptions of stock price increases etc. Otherwise, I just don't see it. Not even close I would suspect.


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Bede
 Post subject: Re: Upgrade
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:04 pm 
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No assumptions on growth, just the regular 6th year FO pay. Most 3rd year FO's do around 100k. Take the regular hourly wage, multiply by 1000 then add 30% for ESPP, RSU's (assuming no growth), and profit share (an extra paycheque 2x/yr) works out pretty accurately to the T4 number. No pension though.


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twinpratts
 Post subject: Re: Upgrade
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:47 pm 
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Been here almost 5 yrs, and still have 135-150 in front of me (I'm happy to wait in the right seat at this pay and schedule).


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CAL
 Post subject: Re: Upgrade
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:17 pm 
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I am guessing minimum 8 years now....perhaps higher pending how the turboprop thing goes and growth at mainline....but with 130 ahead of you and say 30 a year plus retirements resignations etc...someone can do the math...but its still shorter than legacy carriers.

The numbers on salaries at westjet vary as every pilot there can essentially pick the type of lifestyle they want to live more or less and this also varies from city to city as some cities support much better schedules than others...for example yvr/yyc/yyz...anywhere with volume. If you fly your full block and take the straight pay then the math is simple on a gross number and its ok... I think where the top end gets skewed dramatically is the guys that post on here love westjet and probably fly alot (pick up overtime)...I think for the average dude at WJ flying his block life is ok (pending your commute) but I wouldnt describe it as amazing by any means. Where WJ beats many others is the flexibility of lifestyle and a very understanding group of bosses...a great job as a part timer with a second business that makes some real money......but I cant imagine 5 day pairings when I am 60...especially after doing them for 30 years...obviously it will change by then though right!:)
Then again this is an airline and its aviation....nothing is perfect and its not just about the pilots.....


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Green Onions
 Post subject: Re: Upgrade
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:06 pm 
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I was told by a current WJ pilot that there is only 12 upgrades in 2012. Can anyone confirm? If this is true and after 5 years you still have 150 ahead of you it is looking like a very long wait unless there is a lot of growth in the next 10 years. It is also my understanding that the pilot group is very young at WJ and therefore wont be very many retirements in the next 10 years.


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twinpratts
 Post subject: Re: Upgrade
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:26 am 
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Yep. That sounds about right.


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Inverted2
 Post subject: Re: Upgrade
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:51 am 
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Green Onions wrote:
Anyone want to take a guess at the current time to upgrade for a new hire right now? I know they used to say 10-12 years, but with the focus on the regional for the next few years atleast, is it going to be more like 15... maybe more?

More and more guys seem to want to stay longer now... a current Jazz pilot is fighting to work past 65, and not in the right seat.

What are new hires being told right now?


Wants to work at Jazz past 65? Does he have a brain tumor? :lol: I'm sure he is getting lots of support from his peers. :wink:


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mbav8r
 Post subject: Re: Upgrade
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:55 pm 
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Re: Jazz Pilot working past 65, there a very few who have said anything negative about this issue or at Jazz non-issue. Myself, I'm a long ways from upgrade and I don't care, if a guy/girl feels the need to keep working, that's their perogative. I know of several who have pulled the pin prior to 65, some at 60. I also know of some who are planning on pulling the pin prior to 65 so it should balance out.
My one and only concern is the LTD benefits, but I think that it is structured so that if you go past 65 and end up losing your medical, you retire. If that is the case then I don't have any issue at all.


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McDoo the Irish Navigator
 Post subject: bede's correct.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:02 pm 
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A-330;
Bede's estimate is bang on. My neighbour is a emb Captain, I know exactly how much he makes. I know how much my F/Os make on the 737. It's about the same.
Can anyone answer this question for me...
Do one's pension contributions at AC use up all of one's RSP contribution room?
Are the contribution levels determined by a pilot's RSP eleigibility, or are the pension contris a flat rate?


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WJ700
 Post subject: Re: Upgrade
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:19 pm 
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McDoo. I am not an account.... now that we have that understood.

If you look at last years CRA Notice of Assessment it will show your 2012 RRSP allotment. Directly below you will see 'Pension Adjustment' and 'past Pension Adjustment'.

Air Canada Pilots enjoy a fantastic retirement pension. This pension is then adjusted on their CRA return to show there max allowable RRSP contribution room which, if compared over a beer with our AC friends, will be a lower allotment than yours or mine.

Which system is better will remain open for debate. I do like taking care of my own retirement and I don't envy the stress that our AC Brethern have to continue to fight for. However, the Pension is low risk, while allowing some RRSP room.

Now to throw this thread back on track, the upgrades will take a while. I don't think we are in much of a position to make advances on the WJ 2013 agreement but I assume if something comes our way... most will be directed to the FO position as our list has stopped growing.


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McDoo the Irish Navigator
 Post subject: Re: Upgrade
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:40 pm 
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Nor am I sir, I try to spend a little less than I make and save for a rainy day.
Nor do I wish to disparage one system or another.My curiosity was genuine.
Like art, I know what I like.
Paul Gaugin's paintings of naked Polynesian women are my favorites.


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CanadianEh
 Post subject: Re: Upgrade
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:00 am 
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Bede wrote:
No assumptions on growth, just the regular 6th year FO pay. Most 3rd year FO's do around 100k. Take the regular hourly wage, multiply by 1000 then add 30% for ESPP, RSU's (assuming no growth), and profit share (an extra paycheque 2x/yr) works out pretty accurately to the T4 number. No pension though.


Just out of curiosity, does WestJet do any sort of RRSP matching at all or just the ESPP?


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Rotten Apple #1
 Post subject: Re: Upgrade
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:08 am 
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There are three options for your contribution and the matching contribution from the company in WJ's ESP program. They can end up in an account that is:

1) Non-Registered;
2) Registered (RRSP); or,
3) TFSA.

Hope that helps.


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hkgboy
 Post subject: Re: Upgrade
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:19 am 
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I'm not sure why this question has inspired my first ever post after years of lurking but here goes...

Why is it that when discussing pay the WJ crowd always go right to the amount on T4's? That isn't the question really. Each pay period who has more money deposited in their bank account, by the company, that they can then go spend? An AC skipper or a 6 year WJ F/O? This isn't a wind up or an attack. I know everybody is very sensitive! Just an actual honest question.

I know it's a thread hijack but I have another question regarding WJ compensation. Apologize if this is a stupid question but I really don't know. For the stock purchase plan: Ultimately where do the shares come from? Are they just newly issued?

1 more thing, is that 1000 hours credit or actual flying time? Seems like a lot of flying!


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KAG
 Post subject: Re: Upgrade
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:36 pm 
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Net pay AC skipper hands down beats us. Yes we have acess to our ESP after a year, and every month I have around $3600 in stock available to me but that's my retirement fund.
Not sure where the stock comes from, it's not diluted though. 1000 credit- we don't work that hard unless we want to.

In a nut shell, sure our T4 is great and were paid very well but when you factor in everything (benefits, pension) we as FO's may t4 as much as an EMJ skipper but we don't earn as much total compensation.


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Biff
 Post subject: Re: Upgrade
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:07 pm 
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hkgboy wrote:
For the stock purchase plan: Ultimately where do the shares come from? Are they just newly issued?


Unfortunately I forget how many times a month(I think its 4 or 5), CIBC buys the required number of shares on the open market. They are then credited to the employees at the average buy price.


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slob driver
 Post subject: Re: Upgrade
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:41 pm 
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Hi everyone,

I think that KAG has it right. If you were to compare our T4 to an EMB. captain's T4 plus company pension contribution, then the EMB. skipper would beat us hands down, if Airline pilot central numbers are accurate. I'm guessing Air Canada makes an approx. 11-13% pension contribution on behalf of the pilot year over year. The WJ F/O total compensation is more comparable to a senior Jazz captain. Again those calculations include pension contributions by the company on behalf of the pilot.


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