Air Canada pilots call in sick, fatigued, and blind.

[Beefitarian]

I don't work for air canada nor am I an airline pilot. I 100% sympathize with your cause. One thing I find strange though is we only seem to be hearing from the management side of the conflict in the media. Why isn't your union a bit more vocal in explaining all these, seemingly legitimate, causes? I understand that the media chooses what to air and can make things look a certain way but you guys don't seem to be getting much exposure...

Because Canada's media has been running on an anti union agenda for decades.

[WF9F]

Colonel sanders,

You do the rightful owner of that name a grave injustice.

Edited.

[Hawkerflyer]

Should make like the Toronto Maple Leafs and announce a rebuild.

[126.7_STFU]

Rockie,

You said

Once Air Canada gets what they want regarding eliminating scope and the pension we will never get it back. In fact it will spell the beginning of the end for Air Canada as the corporation moves what's left of the assets out (airplanes) of Air Canada proper.

Once they do? Sorry I do what I can to follow the different twists and spins by most news sources, but your statement is quite definitive. Basically you're saying it's going to happen, as there is nothing the union can do to override the legislation? I was under the impression that the airline cannot just go ahead and do what it wants to do absent consent of the unions?

[tyndall]

However it should be blatantly obvious even to you that for the company to feel it at all necessary to return to the table there will have to be a service disruption. Unfortunately that will inconvenience some passengers. But as I said our livelihoods are at stake here, and no reasonable person would expect us to sacrifice our livelihoods for the sake of somebody else's short term convenience. Except apparently you.

I agree, the only way to force management to do something is a work stoppage. Unfortunately, this cannot be done without hurting the customers and in return, yourselves. Tell me, has the union estimated the fallout from job action? How many jobs will be lost due to customers not coming back? Will this affect other AC employees that do not have a dispute and are they willing to sacrifice themselves for you?

Fact is, nobody really cares about your livelihood except your coworkers and people that want your job. This is 2012. People have their own problems. Watch tv at all? Its full of reality shows where people get kicked while they're down just for entertainment. Someone mentioned the postal strike. When the workers went on strike, thousands of small businesses were hit hard. Inventory was tied up, shipping costs went through the roof, jobs were lost. The postal workers caused a lot of collateral damage. The end result was Canada Post losing business and the competition gaining. I'm sure the unemployed and their families were comforted by the fact that they helped someone else keep the livelihood they were accustomed to and the businesses were happy to donate to the cause.

Passengers have to go through hell just to get on a plane. Between security, taxes, fees and lousy service, they've had enough. Heck, my kid was a victim of Canada 3000. Saved all year and lost it all. All people want is to get to where they're going with the least amount of hassle. People won't remember why there was a strike, who it was or what the issues were, all they'll remember is Air Canada caused them harm and to protect themselves they better choose a more reliable airline. With every year a threat of a strike and now the Aveos debacle, AC will be lucky to have any customers.

Contrary to the propaganda of unions, employees don't get to dictate company direction or write their own job description. Two of the three union jobs I had ended with the two men in a rowboat scenario. Instead of trying to force the company to keep the job you want, it would be better to work with them and see if there is a place for you in their future. The alternative is you sink with the company and the rest of the collateral damage.

It sucks to be you and I feel sorry that you are in such a position. But don't be deluded into thinking you have the support of the flying public that pays the bills.

[Rockie]

Once they do? Sorry I do what I can to follow the different twists and spins by most news sources, but your statement is quite definitive.

Speaking in the hypothetical. This isn't over by a long stretch.

Unfortunately, this cannot be done without hurting the customers and in return, yourselves.

There is no such thing as industrial action that doesn't inconvenience somebody, most of all the corporation. That's kind of the point. There's no other way to bring some companies to the table.

Fact is, nobody really cares about your livelihood except your coworkers and people that want your job.

Correct.

But don't be deluded into thinking you have the support of the flying public that pays the bills.

I never said we had the support of the flying public. But I'm pretty confident that if they have a job that depends on a collective agreement for such things as pay and benefits, somewhere down deep among that apathy they understand unless they are utterly incapable of imagining it happening to them. Some people like that do exist, and post right here on this forum.

Instead of trying to force the company to keep the job you want, it would be better to work with them and see if there is a place for you in their future.

Clearly you don't know anything about Air Canada.

[Colonel Sanders]

Edited. On topic please.

[Hawkerflyer]

Thanks to this crap, I had to just book a flight on Air France, not my preference but I can not take the uncertainty with AC.
Funny though, out of Air Transat, Air France and Air Canada...guess which one was the most expensive!?! Crazy times indeed!

[bmc]

Thanks to this crap, I had to just book a flight on Air France, not my preference but I can not take the uncertainty with AC.
Funny though, out of Air Transat, Air France and Air Canada...guess which one was the most expensive!?! Crazy times indeed!

Are you serious? Flying either to Paris, or through Paris exposes you to all kinds of continuous labour action: ATC strike, ground handlers, catering, maintenance, pilots, biscuit shooters, etc. The only benefit to AF out of Montreal is 2-3 times a day to CDG.

[DashFiveGuy]

I give the Air Canada pilots my full support. It's about damn time the pilot group start standing up to management and the traveling public for that matter!! The traveling public seem to think it's their god given right to travel by air.....well, I hate to tell you this but it isn't.

I for one am getting really tired of hearing people bitching about how these Air Canada pilots are inconveniencing them, oh poor me.

Good on you "confuzed" (a truly appropriate name if ever there was one!)! You stand up to the travelling public!! Give them whats for!

WOW!! Simply unbelieveable! You do realize that the travelling public is your boss don't you? Your pay doesn't come from management, it comes from the travelling public and without them you are out of a job! You should be doing everything within your control all the time, everytime, to ensure that customers are not only not inconvenienced but are kept happy....unless of course you don't want their business.

A basic understanding of the principles of customer service is one reason why WestJet is head and shoulders above AC and attitudes like you have just displayed illustrate very nicely why I will never travel AC again if there is any other choice available.

[MrWings]

Again, I am shocked that the customer keeps getting attacked as part of the problem.

There are more people flying these days BECAUSE fares are affordable. More aircraft in the skies to serve these people mean more pilot jobs.

Now, if your argument is that fares are too low and are not covering costs, especially pilot wages/raises, is that not a management problem?

Why does the customer get chastised for bargain hunting? Do you people boycott Wal-Mart too? Do you only buy local produce? Do you always fill your car up at the station with the highest posted price? Do all of the labels in your house say Made In Canada? Well, good for you.

[Beefitarian]

I have felt like AirCanada decided to quit caring about me as a customer years ago. It just got worse and worse until I got to the point of avoiding them even if it meant more work or cost. Now I laugh and/or wonder why when my inlaws regale me with tales of what went wrong on yet another AirCanada flight they took.

Again, I am shocked that the customer keeps getting attacked as part of the problem.

There are more people flying these days BECAUSE fares are affordable. More aircraft in the skies to serve these people mean more pilot jobs.

Now, if your argument is that fares are too low and are not covering costs, especially pilot wages/raises, is that not a management problem?

I'd say.

Do you people boycott Wal-Mart too? Do you only buy local produce?

I have nearly allways done this.

Do you always fill your car up at the station with the highest posted price?

No but I don't drive around looking for the one or two cent per litre lower price anymore either.

Do all of the labels in your house say Made In Canada?

They used to. Unfourtunately it is honestly near impossible now. Soon enough Canadian Pilots may be just like Canadian factory workers.

[MrWings]

Don't get me wrong. I think Air Canada is getting the shaft by the government and pilots have the right to stand up for what they believe. If that means strike then strike.

But pick your battles. It shouldn't be with the customer.

[Beefitarian]

Agreed. Further I think they should have a right to take apropriate job action to cause management to come to the table for bargaining however any thing that penalizes and alienates the customer is not the way to go about that.

I used to buy Exclusively AirCanada because the service was excellent and they treated me better than the other carriers. Keep talking about how customers should be paying fair market prices for tickets and treating them like the enemy and you won't have to worry about them paying unfair low prices for tickets to ride AirCanada.

[Expat]

Business 101:

People with money invested in the company, AC, with their hard earned cash.
They bought shares, with which they thought they would get richer, and afford better retirement. Right?
When AC started to underperform, the shareholders elected a board that would improve earnings, through reorganization. Share value is a result of improved earnings, due to better management. Right?

The board picked a CEO who could deliver on earnings, and share value.
The CEO had no interest in pleasing customers, governments, employees, unions, etc...
The CEO got paid for delivering results, and that means profits, short term. He is a fixer, and is interested in solutions that will provide solutions quickly. Shareholders already know that the short term solutions will provide only short term positive results. They know that when the shares go up, they must sell. Suckers will come and buy, as soon as the stock picks up.


The CEO's options include:

Lower the salary expenses,
Lower the pension liabilities,
Lower the MRO expenses,
Lower the capital expenses,
Issue bonds, to mazimize long-term deby,
Make maximum use of sub-contractors, to reduce direct short-term liabilities,
Float or sell underperforming divisions, and departments,


The rest is history.

[Rockie]

But pick your battles. It shouldn't be with the customer.

Believe me, it's not. Throughout this whole disgusting episode the pilots have been 100% consistent in putting the customer first. We gave the government and our passengers our guarantee we would not disrupt air travel in any way over the march break, and we haven't. If anybody is to be accused of playing fast and loose with the customer's interests it's the company who were prepared to lock us out at the very beginning of the march break.

Now, if you say the company knew the government would prohibit any work stoppage within minutes of the lockout notice then perhaps you should be asking some very difficult and pointed questions to Air Canada management and the government for colluding against workers and their democratic rights.

I think everybody here agrees pilots have the right to strike. If any of you have an idea on how to do that effectively without impacting the passengers I am all ears...

[CanadianEh]

Business 101:

People with money invested in the company, AC, with their hard earned cash.
They bought shares, with which they thought they would get richer, and afford better retirement. Right?
When AC started to underperform, the shareholders elected a board that would improve earnings, through reorganization. Share value is a result of improved earnings, due to better management. Right?

The board picked a CEO who could deliver on earnings, and share value.
The CEO had no interest in pleasing customers, governments, employees, unions, etc...
The CEO got paid for delivering results, and that means profits, short term. He is a fixer, and is interested in solutions that will provide solutions quickly. Shareholders already know that the short term solutions will provide only short term positive results. They know that when the shares go up, they must sell. Suckers will come and buy, as soon as the stock picks up.


The CEO's options include:

Lower the salary expenses,
Lower the pension liabilities,
Lower the MRO expenses,
Lower the capital expenses,
Issue bonds, to mazimize long-term deby,
Make maximum use of sub-contractors, to reduce direct short-term liabilities,
Float or sell underperforming divisions, and departments,


The rest is history.

Well, Air Canada's stock is down 75%, all the employees are disgruntled and unmotivated, customers are fed up, suppliers (ie: Aveos) are going out of business..

If the BOD was smart, they would send Calin to the curb... but probably not without receiving a healthy "exit bonus" for his "fine contribution" - Remember what happened to Montie Brewer even after he made shitty fuel hedging decisions which cost Air Canada many millions of dollars? what a f%cking joke!!!!!

I don't think there is a single stakeholder at Air Canada that's happy right now, except maybe management because they are still making millions. And maybe the media.

[Rockie]

The CEO's options include:

Lower the salary expenses,
Lower the pension liabilities,
Lower the MRO expenses,
Lower the capital expenses,
Issue bonds, to mazimize long-term deby,
Make maximum use of sub-contractors, to reduce direct short-term liabilities,
Float or sell underperforming divisions, and departments,

You left out a bunch that have to do with a happy work force willingly going above and beyond for the sake of the company knowing it is appreciated and respected by the management, and making the airline the service provider of choice for the customer thus actually making money.

But don't worry, I've yet to see an Air Canada management that's thought of those things either.

[Beefitarian]

Rock you're somehow missing some important things even though you secretly want them.

The sunshine and lollypops need to flow up from management through the employees to the Customers.
Instead the shit is flowing down the same route.

The employees need to take the shit power through it and somehow convert it to sunshine and lollypops for the customers because they risk them riding with someone else one day and finding out how bad it is.

If you don't want to work that out for AirCanada management, quit and make someother company profitable then negotiate with them for decent treatment. You may as well go now before they finally collapse and there's thousands of bitter employees applying and competing for work with the other companies.

[confuzed]

Good on you "confuzed" (a truly appropriate name if ever there was one!)! You stand up to the travelling public!! Give them whats for!

WOW!! Simply unbelieveable! You do realize that the travelling public is your boss don't you? Your pay doesn't come from management, it comes from the travelling public and without them you are out of a job! You should be doing everything within your control all the time, everytime, to ensure that customers are not only not inconvenienced but are kept happy....unless of course you don't want their business.

A basic understanding of the principles of customer service is one reason why WestJet is head and shoulders above AC and attitudes like you have just displayed illustrate very nicely why I will never travel AC again if there is any other choice available.

I stand by my statement. Dude, I've been around the customer service end of things my whole life and do understand how it works. There are just some customers you DON'T care about going to the competition. Those customers who do nothing but whine, complain, bitch, moan and belittle your airline or place of business (especially in front of other passengers) are TOXIC! It is this type that will poison the customers you do have. You are best to treat your loyal customers like absolute gold and let the shitty ones just continue on their way. There are just some people out there that are programmed to complain and be miserable, and frankly I want them as far away from my other customers as possible.

It makes no difference if you're selling cars or flying airplanes a customer is a customer....some are just bad news. These type of people will write a complaint just because you gave them too much ice, or not enough pop or whatever. If a person is coming to me and bitching about the service of their $59 ticket then I don't take it too seriously....you get what you pay for and it goes the other way as well. I'm not saying this is true in all cases, but you also attract lower quality customers with those prices as well wanting first class service or service on par with the equivalent J class. I also realize that it is the travelling people that are a constant drain on the financial well being of airlines, EXPECTING cheaper airline tickets then it takes to run the airplane itself or take a bus for that matter. This is a dangerous mindset, as when an airline closes its doors because they can't afford to operate anymore it's the travelling public that can't figure out why and get all pissed off at the airline itself as if it's their fault. There are fixed operating costs of an airplane and if you continuously operate below them because the almighty customers want cheaper tickets then you can do the math yourself I'm sure......surely you can do that.

I'm not taking a dig at Westjet, but actually find their customer service does not compare to AC. AC is by far superior from what I've seen both as a paying passenger and as deadheading crew.

As a paying passenger I understand why ticket prices need to go UP if anything. Does it suck, of course it does but it is what it is. With the rising cost of fuel, somethings gotta give. If this pisses you off, then write to your local MP and ask why there's so much taxation on your fare, why fuel prices are so high, and why they allow greedy airports to rape airlines in the form of airport fees. Just do some research about landing fees at Pearson and you'll see what I mean.

[Beefitarian]

How can I tell the difference between a "Toxic" customer and one that's upset because a bunch of your co workers were, "Making them pay to teach the rat bastard management a lesson!" or are they all the same?

[Hawkerflyer]

Thanks to this crap, I had to just book a flight on Air France, not my preference but I can not take the uncertainty with AC.
Funny though, out of Air Transat, Air France and Air Canada...guess which one was the most expensive!?! Crazy times indeed!

Are you serious? Flying either to Paris, or through Paris exposes you to all kinds of continuous labour action: ATC strike, ground handlers, catering, maintenance, pilots, biscuit shooters, etc. The only benefit to AF out of Montreal is 2-3 times a day to CDG.

Oh yes, I am indeed serious.

[Rockie]

The employees need to take the shit power through it and somehow convert it to sunshine and lollypops for the customers because they risk them riding with someone else one day and finding out how bad it is.

If you don't want to work that out for AirCanada management, quit and make someother company profitable then negotiate with them for decent treatment. You may as well go now before they finally collapse and there's thousands of bitter employees applying and competing for work with the other companies.

Aside from the wholly impractical aspects of leaving to go to another company (what other company?), I'm not a quitter and would prefer to finish out my career right here at Air Canada. So I choose to fix it.

Tell me how I can compel Air Canada to not farm my job out to the lowest bidder thus eliminating my job and pension, and doing that without causing them, and unavoidably our passengers, some inconvenience? Still waiting for that great idea from one of you guys.

[AEROBAT]

On Avcanada you constantly read topics about dangerous working conditions, training bonds, fatigued crews and pilots working for substandard pay ect. Generaly a lot of negative comments about the aviation industry.

Now Air Canada pilots are standing up for their working conditions and everyone dumps on them.

[confuzed]

How can I tell the difference between a "Toxic" customer and one that's upset because a bunch of your co workers were, "Making them pay to teach the rat bastard management a lesson!" or are they all the same?

Well after dealing with a lot of customers it gets easier with time I find. I also learned from various types of businesses over time which has helped. Usually you can tell within the first few minutes which category someone falls into. There are those that you just CAN'T please and nothing you say or do will change their mind. However, if someone has a legitimate complaint then yes obviously I will bend over backwards to help them out. That's just the way I am.....I've even had a passenger stranded one year at Thanksgiving due to weather where the options for meals were limited, so I insisted he come and join my wife and I for dinner. Did I have to do that? No...but he was a great customer and I felt really bad for his circumstances. Later on the weather cleared up, I called him up and off we went.

My whole point is this really. At some point the travelling public have to realize that what you gain with great ticket prices may not equate to good service...you can't always have your cake and eat it too. There is only so much that can be done, and the average person that is well travelled understands the intricacies of day to day airline operations. People want all the perks but don't want to pay for it, or they expect the same style of service paying $59 for a ticket that someone else paid $1000 for.

People who say that it's a management problem that wages are low clearly doesn't understand what's going on. If money in isn't able to meet money out then something obviously has to give....obviously it's not going to be (you should hope!) safety, so it will be services offered, wages, etc...
Comparing companies like AC, Delta, etc to Westjet and Southwest is like comparing apples to oranges as they're set up entirely different and have different cost structures that may not be able to be changed as they are such a mature, established company. All they can do is match the service level as best they can or offer something better (eg AC has a better inflight entertainment system than WJ).