F-35 looking more like white elephant

[Colonel Sanders]

Keep in mind that if the Harper gov't simultaneously found a cure for cancer and heart disease, the CBC's headline would read:

"Harper Government Overpopulates Planet"

The real story is that the CBC hates the Conservatives, who are trying to reduce government spending, which means that some people at the CBC could lose their jobs as a result. Or not get a raise.

That's a story the CBC will never run.

[YYZSaabGuy]

Keep in mind that if the Harper gov't simultaneously found a cure for cancer and heart disease, the CBC's headline would read:
"Harper Government Overpopulates Planet"

Not quite.
The headline would read "Harper Government Overpopulates Planet; Liberals/NDP Call For Parliamentary Inquiry".

[Expat]

Keep in mind that if the Harper gov't simultaneously found a cure for cancer and heart disease, the CBC's headline would read:

"Harper Government Overpopulates Planet"

The real story is that the CBC hates the Conservatives, who are trying to reduce government spending, which means that some people at the CBC could lose their jobs as a result. Or not get a raise.

That's a story the CBC will never run.

I myself find nothing wrong with having major media, even state media, criticize the government. We can consider ourselves lucky to have such freedom of the press. It shows for sure that the press is not controlled by the same mafia that elects the government, like our neighbors down south.

[Rockie]

The CBC is very evenhanded in their treatment of political issues since they are acutely aware that people of all political stripes partially fund their network. In fact the only person on CBC I've ever heard rail against one side of the spectrum or the other is Rex Murphy. Guess which way he leans?

SunTV on the other hand is almost cartoonish in their unwavering support of all things conservative and their childish rants against anything they perceive as left wing.

[North Shore]

[Mod Cap ON]
The CBC and its bias aren't really the topic of discussion here; the F35 is.

Back to flogging the staggering horse, please....

[Big Pistons Forever]

No need for further horse flogging. The F 35 option is dead, the government is just waiting for for the least embarrassing moment to make it official. I confidently predict that there will never be an F 35 operated by the RCAF

[Rockie]

Back to flogging the staggering horse, please....

My apologies. In keeping with the staggering horse theme the government is gearing up to finally take it out back and shoot it. But as BPF says it will occur at a time when the fewest people possible hear the shot so the government doesn't have to justify keeping it on life support for so long.

[trampbike]

It was not the conservatives who got us involved with this in the first place. We lose money the Liberals invested, and we purchase some rhinos....the likely event.

Not quite.
Under the liberal government, Canada invested a total of 160M$ in the JSF program (10M$ in 1997, for the Concept Demonstration phase, and 150M$ over 10 years in 2002 for the System Development and Demonstration phase).
This investment brought more than double than that in contract for the canadian aerospace industry. If we don't purchase the F35, that money will not be lost. It already paid off. The liberals don't always get it wrong, I guess.

It's the conservative that got us really involved in the JSF program by signing in 2006 the Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) for the Production, Sustainment and Follow-on Development phase, investing 551M$ over the 2007-2051 period. If we don't buy the F35, some of that money will be lost, and if we decide to get out of the MoU in order to be able to do a real competition, we'll end up paying much more for the F35 if it's the winning airplane, and the industrial benefits will be greatly reduced.

I confidently predict that there will never be an F 35 operated by the RCAF

I'd be willing to bet on that with you.
I'm not sure I'd be happy to see Canada purchasing F35, but I'd sure be happy to win a bet.

[kamikaze]

I was going to say ... the Liberals paid to get us in as partners so Canadian companies could participate, and this is already happening, regardless of whether we purchase the aircraft. There are already many Canadian components in the F-35.

They never committed to purchasing the a/c, that move was stritly a cost/benefit thing for the canadian aerospace industry, and it was a very good move that's paid off.

The current debacle is 100% the making of the conservatives.

[trampbike]

I was going to say ... the Liberals paid to get us in as partners so Canadian companies could participate, and this is already happening, regardless of whether we purchase the aircraft.

Yes, the contracts we got for the development phase won't be lost. However, as we enter the sustainment and follow-on development phase, if we get out of the MoU, then that's it for future canadian bids on F35 parts and maintenance.

[126.7_STFU]

Not Quite:

Trampbike,

Under the liberal government, Canada invested a total of 160M$ in the JSF program (10M$ in 1997, for the Concept Demonstration phase, and 150M$ over 10 years in 2002 for the System Development and Demonstration phase).

End of story. They got us involved directly with this program through investment lol. They would not invest in an airplane they may not acquire. To say otherwise is absolutely ridiculous and as I would say, a political spin. I am not talking about anything else when it comes to this point, other than the Liberals investing in the program and bringing us to the table. Not really something you disagree on because Harper had yet to take office. I know some people like to mix and match politics and history, but this is pretty clear. A liberal government started this fiasco, the Harper Government merely continued with it. But to be honest, I would rather deal with a Government who is not afraid to say we got the numbers wrong and therefore will not order it as opposed to a Government who will cancel much needed (reasonably priced) helicopters for the sake of politics.

This investment brought more than double than that in contract for the canadian aerospace industry. If we don't purchase the F35, that money will not be lost. It already paid off. The liberals don't always get it wrong, I guess.

Any sources? So we actually have gained $ and get double our investment if we pull out of the program? Looks like Harper is an economist and making the right choice after all? (being facetious), even though I agree.

It's the conservative that got us really involved in the JSF program by signing in 2006 the Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) for the Production, Sustainment and Follow-on Development phase, investing 551M$ over the 2007-2051 period. If we don't buy the F35, some of that money will be lost, and if we decide to get out of the MoU in order to be able to do a real competition, we'll end up paying much more for the F35 if it's the winning airplane, and the industrial benefits will be greatly reduced.

This seems wholly inflated to me. You're telling me that since 2007 (5 years), we have invested a substantial amount of cash in this program and if we indeed withdraw, it will make Chretien's cancellation look minuscule? So who invested more .... the liberals or the conservatives? Some quick math based on your figures would gather the Cons have not invested any more than 60-80 million in the project which would place the liberals with higher figure assuming 150 million has been paid in 2012.

The problem is you argued a point absolutely irrelevant to my simple point; that the Liberals got us involved with this blunder, not the Conservatives. You see the Conservatives were not in power at that time.

I recently had someone try and explain to me that Harper planned on getting this jet in 2002 before his Afghan invasion! ??? So forgive me if I seem a bit offensive..............

You may in fact be correct though I highly doubt the Harper Gov has invested more into this program than the original amounts given by the previous Liberal Government. Though it still blows me away that so many people bitch and complain about a government who announced they will not order this aircraft outside of the allocated budget. They would not put themselves in this position if they were going to buy it anyway.

[kamikaze]

"A liberal government started this fiasco, the Harper Government merely continued with it."

When the liberals did this, it was clearly communicated that they were NOT committing to the aircraft, and doing it purely for the industrial benefits.

That idea worked out just fine, they started no fiasco.

The whole thing could've been left alone, and we would've spent 160M$, reaped the industrial benefits, and left it at that.

Choices of suppliers were made before 2006 were they not? I doubt the whole JSF programs would've suddenly dumped all their Canadian suppliers because Canada didn't sign the 2006 MoU.

From the Prime Minister's website:

"Canada has made payments of approximately $168 million to the JSF program; and, since 2002, this investment has led to more than $350 million in contracts with more than 60 Canadian companies, research laboratories and universities."

[kamikaze]

Oooh, more recent data it seems, from Indsutry Canada:

"To date, 70 Canadian companies have secured over $435 million USD in contracts on F35 development and initial production (up from $370 million USD in June 2011)."

[trampbike]

Thanks kamikaze. Now it's you who beat me to the reply

126.7_STFU, the information is widely available on the internet, I'm not going to bother linking the sources for now, since you did not seem to bother reasearching the different phase of the JSF program that I introduced to you.

They would not invest in an airplane they may not acquire.

You are trolling right?

[126.7_STFU]

Thanks kamikaze. Now it's you who beat me to the reply

126.7_STFU, the information is widely available on the internet, I'm not going to bother linking the sources for now, since you did not seem to bother reasearching the different phase of the JSF program that I introduced to you.

They would not invest in an airplane they may not acquire.

You are trolling right?

[frosti]

No need for further horse flogging. The F 35 option is dead, the government is just waiting for for the least embarrassing moment to make it official. I confidently predict that there will never be an F 35 operated by the RCAF

Quoted for future use. The $9B is already there for the F35, I guess it all depends on how many we buy initially. The line will be open for decades, there is nothing to say we can't go an order more. We might buy only 50 in a few years and once everything is set-up, another order for 20 or so will go in.

[126.7_STFU]

Hey lets play the what if game. What if the NDP wins the next Federal election, will they cancel the F35 ? (if not yet cancelled)

[reality check]

F-35s don't meet military's requirements, documents show
Timing of statement of operational requirements for plane also questioned
CBC News Posted: Mar 26, 2012 6:32 PM ET Last Updated: Mar 26, 2012 7:06 PM ET Read 308 comments308



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The federal government didn't follow normal procurement procedures to buy the F-35 fighter jets and the plane fails to meet at least one critical feature the government stipulated must be met, documents viewed by CBC News suggest.

CBC Power & Politics host Evan Solomon reported Monday that the exclusive new evidence reveals for the first time the Canadian military's requirements for the aircraft that are to replace the aging fleet of CF-18s.

Solomon said the statement of operational requirements, a document that has never been made public, outlines what the plane must be able to do in order to be purchased.

It describes specific mandatory characteristics without which the overall operational capability would be "unacceptably diminished."

One of the 28 mandatory requirements listed is for the plane's sensor requirements. The document says the plane must be capable of providing the pilot with 360-degree, out-of-cockpit visual situational awareness in a no-light environment.

"According to the U.S. Department of Defence there are so many problems with this feature that they're actually designing a backup. In other words, the plane can't do it," Solomon reported.

Questions are also being raised about the brief amount of time between when the statement of operational requirements was written and when Defence Minister Peter MacKay announced the purchase.

The document, referred to as "Version 1.0" of the statement of operational requirements for the "next generation fighter capability" was issued on June 1, 2010.

It would normally take one to two years after a statement of operational requirements is issued to hold a competition to find a product and sign a contract with a supplier.

But MacKay appeared on Power & Politics less than two months later, on July 16, 2010, to announce that the government was moving forward with the F-35 purchase.

An F-35 flies over the Grand Canyon during a test flight, March 19, 2009. (Darin Russell/Lockheed Martin)
The government plans to buy 65 planes from Lockheed Martin as part of a joint purchasing program with other countries.

Alan Williams, a former assistant deputy minister at the Department of National Defence and the official who signed the memorandum of understanding in 2002 that brought Canada into the Joint Strike Fighter program, said normal procedures weren't followed.

"Not only is it not normal, but it's a complete hijacking and rigging of the process," he said in an interview on Monday's Power & Politics.

"In 2006, the military and civilians recommended the F-35 to the minister and four years later, they developed their requirements, obviously rigged or wired to ensure that the only jet to meet the requirements would be the one that they recommended four years earlier," Williams said.

But Christopher Alexander, MacKay's parliamentary secretary, told Solomon that the F-35 does meet the requirements, and "that's why it's been selected."

He said it's a developmental project and that "it's not unusual for items that are being procured for the Canadian Forces not to meet every one of the developmental requirements, it's a question of relative choices."

"You take the one that meets most of them," Alexander said.

The F-35 procurement, the costliest military purchase in Canadian history, is the source of ongoing controversy and is the subject of an auditor general's report that is being released next week. The government estimates the entire purchase and associated costs will be between $14 billion and $16 billion.

[frosti]

One of the 28 mandatory requirements listed is for the plane's sensor requirements. The document says the plane must be capable of providing the pilot with 360-degree, out-of-cockpit visual situational awareness in a no-light environment.

"According to the U.S. Department of Defence there are so many problems with this feature that they're actually designing a backup. In other words, the plane can't do it," Solomon reported.

No, in other words it's in testing and development.

"In 2006, the military and civilians recommended the F-35 to the minister and four years later, they developed their requirements, obviously rigged or wired to ensure that the only jet to meet the requirements would be the one that they recommended four years earlier," Williams said.

Pretty bold accusation, but again with CBC "informative sessions", facts are not important.

[reality check]

Uh huh. Playing the old CBC card again I see. The CBC sux equally for all, get over it. Pretty sure Mr Williams knows a bit about what's going on, regardless of where it's published.

Was watching TV not long ago and there was a ridiculous ad about some fellow marrying bacon, reminded me a bit of you with this pig of an airplane!

[Human Factor]

Hey lets play the what if game. What if the NDP wins the next Federal election, will they cancel the F35 ? (if not yet cancelled)

If the NDP win the next federal election, Canada will be too bankrupt to even buy paper airplanes.

[frosti]

The CBC sux equally for all, get over it.

Yet people still continue to use them as a source of factual information. They are far from that. Tabloid journalism is a better discription.

Here is a good read. http://www.journal.dnd.ca/vol12/no2/18-wilner-eng.asp

[alctel]

All the media in Canada is absolutely terrible, which is how the current government gets away with things that would have them swinging from the nearest lamppost (forgeries, massive corruption, bribery, voter suppression, muzzling of scientists) in my home country of the UK.

CBC TV is included in this - it's awful. CBC radio however is actually quite good. About the only left-leaning media in the country that I can think of are smaller publications like The Walrus, and The Georgia Straight, virtually everything else is owned by Quebecor/Canwest and guess which way they heavily lean?

On topic - the F35 is going to be cancelled - hence the backing up on it in the last couple of days by Harper. I think Mackay is still a big fan, but nowadays everything goes through the PMO, so it's toast. Maybe we can actually buy something suitable and enough of them to be useful.

[frosti]

On topic - the F35 is going to be cancelled

It's going to take a lot more than a few development issues, cost overruns and talking heads on CBC to cancel a multi-billion dollar program like this. Until partner nations start to back out and cancel their involvement, the JSF will continue to progress. In fact, we are seeing the opposite with Japan joining the program and Israel recently announcing an increase in quantity. More and more F35's are coming off the assembly line every month. If the critics got their way the F-22 would've never been built and the F-16 would never have become the successful multi-role fighter that it is today.

[2R]

The F-35 is not the first stealth aircraft that does not perform as advertised.
The sales team that was selling the A-12 Avenger 2 made some wonderful claims that where impossible to overcome.Eventually the A-12 was cancelled by the USA after severe cost overruns.Deja Vu anyone.
They will try to hide behind military secrecy for a while ,but even umericans know that trick does not always work for long.

I have seen this movie before and i know how it ends..........