Finally Some Sensible Advice

[Zip Tie]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-in ... le2381995/

[Legacy]

If I was at AC, I would say sure. But if we are going to incorporate change then I would want the CEO and VPs to lead by example. Take a 300,000 a year salary with options and a vest period of minimum 10 years. If they cant do it then p*ss off. Trust has been placed on the table too many times to get bitten again. When will their CEOs learn.

[Rockie]

If I was at AC, I would say sure. But if we are going to incorporate change then I would want the CEO and VPs to lead by example.

EXACTLY



Amazing how simple this is.

But you will not find that happening here.

[nutsnbolts]

If I was at AC, I would say sure. But if we are going to incorporate change then I would want the CEO and VPs to lead by example.

EXACTLY



Amazing how simple this is.

But you will not find that happening here.

C'mon.....enough is enough! Executive compensation is a red herring, something the IAM, ACPA and all AC unions, for that matter, focus on because it's easy to mislead their ill-informed members and raises the emotional pitch helping unions indoctrinate/brainwash their membership.

From the Air Canada facts sheet: the average salary for managers including executives is 71k. Average salary for a pilot is 143k. In the top twenty compensated employees, ten are unionized pilots! Starting salary for a VP is about 170k which I am told is about what an airbus captains makes, both overpaid in my estimation. From the annual report last year, the CFO's salary was about 500k. On a hourly basis, I'm sure he makes less than many of AC's wide body captains. Also, from the annual report, CR negotiated his compensation package before he came to AC - good for him and good for us, he restructured the airline and kept us out of ccaa. Isn't that what was needed?? As for bonuses, it's a red herring too....I am told that all of ac's unions at one time or another have been offered variable compensation but all have turned it down, so don't complain about it.

[disco]

Nutsnbolts

We get it. In your 5 posts total on here you have made it abundantly clear that you are anti-Pilot, anti-Paul Strachan and anti-union.

Gotcha loud and clear.

[nutsnbolts]

Nutsnbolts

We get it. In your 5 posts total on here you have made it abundantly clear that you are anti-Pilot, anti-Paul Strachan and anti-union.

Gotcha loud and clear.

...simply giving the facts, no bias....but thanks for your interpretation

[Ah_yeah]

Nutsnbolts

We get it. In your 5 posts total on here you have made it abundantly clear that you are anti-Pilot, anti-Paul Strachan and anti-union.

Gotcha loud and clear.

...simply giving the facts, no bias....but thanks for your interpretation

Must be CR's coffee boy.

[Lost in Saigon]

C'mon.....enough is enough! Executive compensation is a red herring, something the IAM, ACPA and all AC unions, for that matter, focus on because it's easy to mislead their ill-informed members and raises the emotional pitch helping unions indoctrinate/brainwash their membership.

From the Air Canada facts sheet: the average salary for managers including executives is 71k. Average salary for a pilot is 143k. In the top twenty compensated employees, ten are unionized pilots! Starting salary for a VP is about 170k which I am told is about what an airbus captains makes, both overpaid in my estimation. From the annual report last year, the CFO's salary was about 500k. On a hourly basis, I'm sure he makes less than many of AC's wide body captains. Also, from the annual report, CR negotiated his compensation package before he came to AC - good for him and good for us, he restructured the airline and kept us out of ccaa. Isn't that what was needed?? As for bonuses, it's a red herring too....I am told that all of ac's unions at one time or another have been offered variable compensation but all have turned it down, so don't complain about it.

Nutsnbolts

We get it. In your 5 posts total on here you have made it abundantly clear that you are anti-Pilot, anti-Paul Strachan and anti-union.

Gotcha loud and clear.

...simply giving the facts, no bias....but thanks for your interpretation

You ARE biased, and your facts are misleading.

When you said that 10 of the top 20 compensated employees are unionized pilots, you leave out the fact that they are not LINE PILOTS. They are VP's or Senior Management Pilots making much more than a Line Pilot.

It is also ridiculous to compare hours worked and salary of a manager to a that of a pilot since pilots are not paid for the work they do on the ground prior to pushback or between flights.

In a typical week most pilots are on duty for 40 hours but only get paid for 20 hours of flight time.

[tbaylx]

You should compare it on an hourly rate...not hours paid..but hours spent at work. You think the pilots are overpaid? Fine..you land the aircraft next time it's shitty out and let us know how that works out for you. We're all overpaid until something happens and you are on board..then you can be damn sure you are hoping we are paid enough to keep experience and skill at the pointy end, and not all of us have left to go overseas on contract to make reasonable wages.

Anyone who thinks pilots are overpaid ought to figure out what our average salary is over an entire career. Looks good making 170K, but not when you figure he probably spent the first 10 years of his career making less than 25K.

[Norwegianwood]

Anyone who thinks pilots are overpaid ought to figure out what our average salary is over an entire career. Looks good making 170K, but not when you figure he probably spent the first 10 years of his career making less than 25K.

AND then get booted out the door at 60

[vic777]

All these threads and past history illustrate that talk is futile.

[KAG]

Nutsnbolts

We get it. In your 5 posts total on here you have made it abundantly clear that you are anti-Pilot, anti-Paul Strachan and anti-union.

Gotcha loud and clear.

...simply giving the facts, no bias....but thanks for your interpretation

No when you say 170K for an airbus skipper is overpaid, thats your opinion, not fact. Thats less today then 10+ years ago, thats a fact. Thats about what we pay our 737 CPTS at WJ, also fact and none of those wages are over paid.

[nutsnbolts]

C'mon.....enough is enough! Executive compensation is a red herring, something the IAM, ACPA and all AC unions, for that matter, focus on because it's easy to mislead their ill-informed members and raises the emotional pitch helping unions indoctrinate/brainwash their membership.

From the Air Canada facts sheet: the average salary for managers including executives is 71k. Average salary for a pilot is 143k. In the top twenty compensated employees, ten are unionized pilots! Starting salary for a VP is about 170k which I am told is about what an airbus captains makes, both overpaid in my estimation. From the annual report last year, the CFO's salary was about 500k. On a hourly basis, I'm sure he makes less than many of AC's wide body captains. Also, from the annual report, CR negotiated his compensation package before he came to AC - good for him and good for us, he restructured the airline and kept us out of ccaa. Isn't that what was needed?? As for bonuses, it's a red herring too....I am told that all of ac's unions at one time or another have been offered variable compensation but all have turned it down, so don't complain about it.

Nutsnbolts

We get it. In your 5 posts total on here you have made it abundantly clear that you are anti-Pilot, anti-Paul Strachan and anti-union.

Gotcha loud and clear.

...simply giving the facts, no bias....but thanks for your interpretation

You ARE biased, and your facts are misleading.

When you said that 10 of the top 20 compensated employees are unionized pilots, you leave out the fact that they are not LINE PILOTS. They are VP's or Senior Management Pilots making much more than a Line Pilot.

It is also ridiculous to compare hours worked and salary of a manager to a that of a pilot since pilots are not paid for the work they do on the ground prior to pushback or between flights.

In a typical week most pilots are on duty for 40 hours but only get paid for 20 hours of flight time.

from the latest air canada fact sheet....Eighty per cent of Air Canada pilots earn more than $100,000 per year, of whom 13 per cent earn more than $200,000, excluding Health and Pension benefits. (Based on active pilots, full year 2010.) Of the 500 highest paid Air Canada employees, 456 are pilots, 23 are management pilots and the remaining 21 are senior management and executives. Of the top 20 salary earners, nine are executives, one is a management pilot and ten are unionized pilots. (Based on 2011 salaries.) Due to pay scale increases provided for in the collective agreement, pilots receive hourly salary rate increases totaling, on average, 11 per cent over 10 years of service for Captains and 38 per cent over nine years of service for First Officers (assuming pilots stay in the same position and aircraft type over the time period). Only 6 per cent of Air Canada pilots have less than two years service (First Officers) or three years service (Relief Pilots) and therefore fall within “flat” (fixed) annual base compensation range of $39,427 - $55,016 excluding Allowances and Premiums, Incentive Rewards and Health and Pension benefits. Due to pay scale increases provided for in the collective agreement, the average wage of pilots hired in 2002 increased by 149 per cent over the past ten years, or 15 per cent annually, to reach $116.68 per hour for an average salary in 2012 of $109,212 excluding Allowances and Premiums, Incentive Rewards and Health and Pension benefits.

[nutsnbolts]

Nutsnbolts

We get it. In your 5 posts total on here you have made it abundantly clear that you are anti-Pilot, anti-Paul Strachan and anti-union.

Gotcha loud and clear.

...simply giving the facts, no bias....but thanks for your interpretation

No when you say 170K for an airbus skipper is overpaid, thats your opinion, not fact. Thats less today then 10+ years ago, thats a fact. Thats about what we pay our 737 CPTS at WJ, also fact and none of those wages are over paid.

'both overpaid in my estimation. ' not meant as an opinion at all, just through it in there to see what kind of response it would generate...can't be serious all the time

[mbav8r]

Does the fact sheet outline the stock option and bonuses for the executives, last time I checked pilots don't get 5 million dollar retention bonuses or stock options. They also don't get 250,000/yr DB pensions indexed with only 3 years of service. So your "Fact sheet" seems to have left out some "facts", wouldn't you say?

[nutsnbolts]

[quote="mbav8r"]Does the fact sheet outline the stock option and bonuses for the executives, last time I checked pilots don't get 5 million dollar retention bonuses or stock options.

I don't know when you last checked, but I guarantee they still don't, why would they?


They also don't get 250,000/yr DB pensions indexed with only 3 years of service.

Neither does any executive or senior manager at Air Canada.

So your "Fact sheet" seems to have left out some "facts", wouldn't you say?

No, why would it? It's a "pilot" fact sheet.

Question for you mbav8r: in reviewing your recent posts it would seem that you are a Jazz pilot. So why are you trying to stir the pot when you don't even have a seat at the table

[teacher]

............because management on the other end of the negotiating table ALWAYS compare the salaries of other pilots and airlines to our own. The better they do, the better we do, we're just playing their game.

Our seat might not be at the same table but we're all in the same room whether it's the Teal, Red or Blue table.

[mbav8r]

from the latest air canada fact sheet

I see nothing in the title to suggest it's a pilot fact sheet...In fact it compares the wages of the top paid executives to the pilots, but leaves out all the other pertinent details that I mentioned, like bonuses etc.

I don't know when you last checked, but I guarantee they still don't, why would they?

That's the point, if you are going to compare, it should be all or nothing.

Neither does any executive or senior manager at Air Canada

See below,
"Meanwhile Air Canada CEO Calin Rovinescu gets to keep his defined benefit pension plan, set to pay him in retirement $351,000 per year – in addition to a 76% pay hike that landed him $4.55 million in compensation last year, plus a $5 million retention bonus."
http://www.discoveryfinance.com/air-can ... efits.html

Question for you mbav8r: in reviewing your recent posts it would seem that you are a Jazz pilot. So why are you trying to stir the pot when you don't even have a seat at the table

What table are you referring to? The one were a sensible person can't point out blatant bias, where only the facts that support their case are presented?
Or, the table where this affects all pilots in the country and in case you didn't know, alot of what affects AC will affect Jazz.

[teacher]

One other thing "nutsnbolts". A TRUE leader leads by example. If the company needs change, than the FIRST person to change should be the one in charge if he or she EVER expects to be taken seriously. I bet knowing the seriousness of the problem if Calin and his crew took the first step in "saving the company" many if not most of ACs employees would follow, reluctantly I'm sure but they would.

To quote the motta of my old Air Cadet Squardon one must always "Lead Where Others Follow". Never expect someone to do something that you yourself wouldn't do.

[Raymond Hall]

This newspaper report, and the underlying study on which it is based, are quite appropriate to the title of this thread:

Canada needs to make fundamental changes to protect way of life

Aggressive outsourcing will hollow out Canadian business; prolonged economic recovery will have left people without jobs and jobs without skilled people; and immigration will sputter in response to the country's lacklustre global brand.

Such is the projection for 2025 if the status quo remains, according to a dramatic new report in which senior leaders from the private and public sectors analyze the demographic, technological, environmental and economic factors that will shape Canadian society in the years to come.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/business ... story.html


Here is the link to the original report:

http://www.hrpa.ca/PublishingImages/202 ... ort_EN.pdf