Pilots, get your sleep. It's your responsibility!

[Les Habitants]

A few months ago, someone posted an article on here about sleep deprivation and the effects it has on people. The results were staggering, and when I thought about it, I realized I don't get my 8 hours of sleep hardly at all. The results impact my flying negatively. I find when I get 6 hours of sleep or less, I miss checks, miss SOP calls, and I just perform poorly. OTOH, on nights when I have gotten 8 hours of sleep, not only do I feel good but I perform much better at work. It's led me to think, how big of a killer is sleep deprivation or lack of sleep really? Look at the statistics on pilot error...how many crashes attributed to pilot error could have been avoided if the pilots had got a decent nights sleep the night before (see Colgan case)? It's an uncomfortable question that makes my insides squirm. The truth of the matter is, not getting enough sleep affects more then just our concentration level and judgement. It affects our whole well being and our life.

When you think about it, how criminal is it that we would show up to work the next day on 6 hours of rest? I certainly wouldn't want my family flying on a plane with a copilot or captain who had a ****** night the night before and was flying with their eyes half open. The scary thing is, it happens all the time! Yes, sleepless nights are going to happen, and that's okay, but there is a difference in getting a bad night's rest when you are consistently getting enough, vs not consistently not getting enough.

This leads me to the second point, that Transport Canada's regulations really aren't fair. Pilots should be required to have a minimum 8 hours of SLEEP (not rest period). The 8 hour rest period should be at least 10, which thankfully my company gives their pilots as a minimum rest period-10 hours. This gives us time to drive home, shower, make some dinner and a lunch for the next day, get ready for bed, get a full 8 hours of rest, get up the next day, and report for work well rested. Why isn't every company doing this, and why does Transport Canada not mandate this?

Get your sleep pilots! Being rested is not a plus, it's our responsibility!

P.S. The same can be said for people driving on the roads. It's not just your life in danger, it's mine too.

[Changes in Latitudes]

Great thoughts on fatigue.

Let's not forget our friends who are on call 24 hours a day, phone could ring at 11pm for a 17 hour duty and they've been up since 7am. I can't believe that practice is still allowed to continue in Canada.

[Tim]

Great thoughts on fatigue.

Let's not forget our friends who are on call 24 hours a day, phone could ring at 11pm for a 17 hour duty and they've been up since 7am. I can't believe that practice is still allowed to continue in Canada.

in my last job in which we might only get 5 calls a month, i had this this happen 2 nights in a row - not the full duty day part but 8 hours anyways. in an effort to get my sleep back on track i didnt sleep during the day after the first flight...only to have the phone ring at bedtime the second night. on the trip home the next morning i had been up for nearly 48 hours. at one point in the flight i noticed something wasnt done right (i dont remember what it was exactly, something like we werent quite on the radial we were supposed to be) and my first thought was 'its close enough'. once that thought went through my head it was quickly replaced with close enough isnt good enough. i then thought 'this is how those cheesy TC safety videos start' so i gave my head a shake and fixed it, but i found i had to concentrate extremely hard to make sure things were not just close enough, but done properly.

if youve never been on call, the decision to stay up after the first all nighter might seem a little silly, but it can save days of recovery time by doing it that way (assuming you wont work 2 nights in a row)...besides, a few hours through the day aint gonna make you feel much better anyways.

now in my current job i have departures that range all over the place, with absolutely no set pattern. its not uncommon to have a 0600 wheels up, followed by a day on call, a 0200 the next day then a 1200 the day after that. how do you set your sleep schedule up so as not to be fatigued? i try very hard to manage my sleep schedule so as to give myself 8 hours before any departure, but it is IMPOSSIBLE to be well rested for every flight.

the problem with a 1 or 2 plane operations is that to make a schedule that gives everyone enough down time to get good rest (not just legal bare minimum)you likely need more crews than your company can afford (or is willing to spend the money on). these operations are small enough that there are just too few people to spread the pain around to so everyone is always bagged.

the solution to this fatigue problem is companies have to spend more money. most arent going to do that if the law says the status quo is fine, and they will lobby to keep the status quo at every turn.

as for the original point of forcing yourself to get 8 hrs of rest before a scheduled departure, i think thats a very good point. i know a lot of folks who go by the '6 hrs is enough' mantra, and at times i certainly have too. for some people it truly is enough, but for most its only enough to get us through the day but not for our brains to be working as well as they could. i hate going to bed at 8pm, i feel like im missing out on time with my wife, friends, the ballgame, etc. but i know the alarm is going off at 4am whether i go to bed or not. i do a lot of flying at 100' and when i havent gotten enough rest i will have accidental microsleeps during the flight. fight it as i might, once they start it takes me about 30 minutes to shake it off. during that 30 min ill get the 'head bobs' every few minutes. what an awful feeling opening your eyes back up to see the water right there and know you had just been asleep. some people might say that because i fly lower that i need to be 'better rested' for a flight because im in critical phases of flight more. i dont buy it. there is no phase of flight where its ok not be 100%. that engine failure is just around the corner. maybe i spend a little more time down there than most, but weve all gotta get close to the ground at some point in the flight. what if your on short final and your microsleep coincides with the other pilots mistake or heart attack or critical emergency or even his microsleep. how many of us have woken up only to find the other pilot had dozed off as well?

les habs, i think youre dead on when you say its our responsibility to get the 8 hours.

[TG]

For those with an Iphone/Ipad or similar, Jeppesen is currently doing a crew Fatigue Risk Data Collection.

You can still apply for their next survey in April by submitting your email to this site:
http://www.jeppesen.com/industry-soluti ... gement.jsp
Scroll down and click on: "Fatigue Data Collection 2011"

Data collection starts next week with 250 crew
Oct 27, 2011
We are today closing registrations for FDC2011. E-learning material will be provided to the participants this Friday. At the same time we now open up for registration for the next FDC planned for April. So please register your interest above if you like to take part in FDC2012! This first round we have 250 crew participating, next time around we hope for over 500. Same terms apply – help science forward, free copy of CrewAlert, first to get a report on the results, and a chance for an iPad. Welcome.

The app is (still !?) free and a very good tool to quantify your level of fatigue. Further more with this crew fatigue data collection.

[Les Habitants]

Tim, GREAT post! Super informative and another great example of how being characterized by not getting enough sleep can hurt you. Obviously you can't get 8 hours of sleep EVERY night, and that's okay. You may even do an all nighter and stay up 48 hours which sucks, but overall it's okay if you're constantly getting that minimum rest. There is a huge difference between flying on 6 hours of rest when you're body is consistently getting enough sleep (8 hours minimum) vs not flying on 6 hours of rest when you're body is NOT getting enough sleep. I remember asking my grandpa this "How do you go to bed at 11:30 and get up at 6 and not be tired?" and his response was "Well I rarely do this, I am used to getting 8-10 hours of sleep every night so once in a while it's not that big of a deal."

I'll admit it, I only got 6 hour last night, and today I'm on call, but I'm being proactive about getting back to that 8 hour rest period. No more late night hockey games when I have to set my alarm for 6 or 7 the next morning, etc.

[Rockie]

This leads me to the second point, that Transport Canada's regulations really aren't fair. Pilots should be required to have a minimum 8 hours of SLEEP (not rest period).

All your points are more than valid, they are self-evident truths. The problem here in Canada stems from the fact Transport Canada does not officially believe people are more prone to fatigue at night and are less able to sleep on odd and shifting sides of the clock. In short they and the operators we work for think we are robots equipped with an on/off switch and an eight hour timer.

A small correction to your post if I may though, Transport Canada regulations require eight hours of prone rest in a suitable rest facility and the total time free from duty must permit at least that when all the travel, meals, hotel checkin and personal hygiene is taken care of.

"minimum rest period" - means a period during which a flight crew member is free from all duties, is not interrupted by the air operator or private operator, and is provided with an opportunity to obtain not less than eight consecutive hours of sleep in suitable accommodation, time to travel to and from that accommodation and time for personal hygiene and meals;

[BE20 Driver]

I worked for a medevac operator for about 4 years. We were one of those 24 hour on call operations but you could hardly call us a small operator.
I would bet that if I checked my logbook, we probably averaged 6 trips per two week rotation. I would further bet that 90% of those trips started between 9-11:00 PM. The average trip there was 14 hours duty. I personally could never get much more than 4 hours of sleep when I tried sleeping during the day. Several days of back to back duty were brutal but normal.
At one point, I had a frank conversation with one of my chief pilots. He agreed that fatigue was the biggest risk to our operation. It was the reason that he no longer flew medevacs. He admitted that despite having the money for an extra crew, until they were legislated to change his boss would not sign off on hiring extra bodies.
It's my opinion that they are just hedging their bet that an accident won't occur before they are forced to change. In my opinion, an accident in this environment is a statistical eventuality. Sadly when said accident occurs, there will be some other factor that is blamed ie pilot error, weather. Fatigue will just be a footnoot in the investigation.

[Les Habitants]

This leads me to the second point, that Transport Canada's regulations really aren't fair. Pilots should be required to have a minimum 8 hours of SLEEP (not rest period).

All your points are more than valid, they are self-evident truths. The problem here in Canada stems from the fact Transport Canada does not officially believe people are more prone to fatigue at night and are less able to sleep on odd and shifting sides of the clock. In short they and the operators we work for think we are robots equipped with an on/off switch and an eight hour timer.

A small correction to your post if I may though, Transport Canada regulations require eight hours of prone rest in a suitable rest facility and the total time free from duty must permit at least that when all the travel, meals, hotel checkin and personal hygiene is taken care of.

"minimum rest period" - means a period during which a flight crew member is free from all duties, is not interrupted by the air operator or private operator, and is provided with an opportunity to obtain not less than eight consecutive hours of sleep in suitable accommodation, time to travel to and from that accommodation and time for personal hygiene and meals;

This is a good point Rockie, but when I spent my time grooming at a certain disdained MB based operator, pilots would be told to go home and show up in exactly 8 hours again for another long all day charter. If they tried to pull the "that's against the law" they were called lazy, and bonuses and upgrades were withheld from them. Not that this should be a reason not to insist, but being in that position is different then speculating about it.

[watermeth]

interesting posts and coments. rest is a real concern in this industry.
I think discussing it on Avcanada can't do much about it, but if you decide to write a letter, publish it on the net and have it signed by all canadian professional pilots available, and after that you send it to the Ministry of transport and TC, I'll sign it with pleasure.

[TG]

I think discussing it on Avcanada can't do much about it,

You are right,
That's why I was quoting this crew Fatigue Risk Data Collection from Jeppesen.
If someone want's to do something about it, that would be a place to start.

[Les Habitants]

No it doesn't do much, but it's like wearing pink in October, it creates awareness. And the truth is, I don't think we as pilots (or even just humans in general) have ANY clue how badly it hampers us.

[planett]

This is a perfect example of the power lobby groups. Pilots were fighting each other as individuals or small tribes protecting their respective turfs while the CAR's and subsequent amendments were being determined by TC with "help" from industry lobby groups. There is no united voice for pilots or safety or fatigue that I'm aware of. Some notorious regulations may have been written differently if pilots groups had not been absent from the process. Don't assume the political process is looking out for us, however, the system could be rigged back towards safety with a well funded lobby group.

[TG]

Les Habitants,

Au contraire
A study like this one could give hard numbers to play with for those in a position to change things (not something that will be done tomorrow for sure)
On top of it, the app can also be used as a tool inside your own company to create:

awareness.

If you are lucky enough to work for one that is concerned about the subject.

It's a bit like an elaborate flight & duty time sheet which can take into account all kind of facts affecting your fatigue level.
Instead of just making sure that you are not busting Transports Canada's regulations.

[Geo]

This is a great thread.

I'd like to add one more thing to this, not quite as an aside, but also not directly related to crew rest regulations. Tim alluded to it in an earlier post, namely: Not everyone is the same. 7-9 hours is the normal range for people to need to sleep...but there are other possible issues that affect our rest and fatigue levels, and awareness is key!

So in that vane, here's something not covered in the regs, because it is really something we need to know and find out ourselves (at least right now):

Sleeping Hygine and Sleeping disorders. It is possible to get 8 or 9 hours sleep, and not feel well rested. If you have slept for 8 hours, and don't feel well rested, a couple of things could be in play, especially if it happens regularly.

One could be your "sleep hygine": Things like the light on your alarm clock (or watch) can disturb your sleep. Do you have a smart phone? Does it chrip when you get e-mail? Do you leave it by the bed at night? (oops). Temperature in your room can be important, hot is not good. Is your bed partner a restless sleeper? Is it a noisy neighbourhood? And so on.

If you're sleeping during the day, are your curtains dark enough? (Switching from day shift to night shift is doable, but it is very similar to jet lag, and we need to watch this) There are many good websites on this subject, better yet, see a specialist. If you're feeling tired a lot, this can be a good place to start and see what works for you.

Some people suffer from Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD) which is related to the changing length of daylight during different seasons (and of course it's worse up north). That's related to the next part:

Sleep Disorders. You can't self-diagnose, if you suspect you have a sleep disorder you should see your MD and then a specialist. (Unfortunately, this can take a few months even in major cities). But it can be important, and believe me its worth it. I know more than I'd like about this, since I suffer from two such disorders. Fortunately there is a lot that can be done for most people. (FYI: I have a category three medical, and I did disclose the disorders. The doc doing my medical did contact my specialist for a letter confirming I was being treated, and that he didn't object to me flying. I don't require medication, I do need to pay attention to sleep hygine and sleep regular hours. And I don't fly (or drive) if I feel tired! Of course, I'm just a PPL - I'm not under pressure to fly. I just love it.

So if you are feeling fatigued all the time, and especially if you think you are getting enough sleep but still feel tired - see your doctor! There are things that can be done. A sleep specialist can also coach you on ways to mitigate jet lag and shift work.

Fatigue sucks, its dangerous, and its often unnecessary.

Fly safe!
g

edited to add a couple of links

http://www.centreforsleep.com/insomnia/

http://www.sleepdex.org/tips.htm

[Gannet167]

Zopiclone. It's amazing and the military has cleared it for use by aircrew.

[Skud Run]

As a medivac pilot myself, I can assure you I get way more than the minimum rest period off. The issue is not there. The issue comes into play when you have been oncall all day and get that 11pm call. I don't understand why a days and nights schedule doesn't get adopted or mandated by tc. I have worked nights with no issues when it is consistent, but flipping back and forth is the killer.

I have had a couple occasions where I got a 11pm call & worked till 6am then the other crew flies all day. The following night I can't sleep because I was sleeping all day. But what do you know, NO CALLS all night. So I fall asleep at 4-5am then the dreaded 6am call comes in. I hope I can get out of medivac before it bites me in the ass.

[squash junky]

This post caught my eye initially and having a back ground in psychology I smiled and wanted to ask a couple of questions.
Having my head bitten off a few times on this forum by people much more knowledgeable than I will ever be on any subject I didn't.
Then after a sleepless night I decided to register with a different identity and just post.
I have always been a bad sleeper and I have chosen the wrong profession
One of the posters above mentioned having flown till 6 am and then getting messed up for the next day. I know that feeling well.
Having suffered through 2 periods of more than 1 year each with sleep less than 4 hrs. per day (documented) this is a touchy subject for me.
The first period was when I was cpt. on a medium jet. About half way through the period a friend did a line check on me and said: ok....it is safe and up to standard, but this is not how I know you. Either you call in sick or I will ground you.
He is still one of my best friends.

After a couple of months I flew again. I switched to a wide body and flying longer distances. Slowly it came back and sleep became less and less. This time I pulled the plug, but still I ended up in the hospital. Quite a bit of research later part of the problem seems to be melatonin production.
Since then we have done quite a bit of research on sleeping and rest, etc. (we=neurologist/psychiatrist/myself)
Ok, already a bit too long....
So-couple of quick points:
1-know your limits and also keep in mind you are subjective, not objective. (it might be difficult to judge yourself)
Play it on the safe side, even though your body can probably take more of a beating than you can imagine
2-alcohol, sex, drugs (legal or illegal) are temporary fixes.
See the comment about zopiclone above (imovane-brand name) Great little pill with a bit of a bitter after taste , but basically doesn't work any more after about 3 wks. or so. Then it becomes a psychological fix. If you do end up taking them once in a while: take half. Most cases this is enough. (don't get me wrong. Imovane is one of the more 'modern' sleeping pills. One big advantage is that it also allows you to have deep sleep which some of the 'older' pills don't. Also it doesn't stay in your system as long, but it is not meant for long term usage)
3-a sleeping problem for more than 6 months: get help

There are some physical causes, but the major cause for not being able to sleep is stress.
As a poster above wrote: "sleep hygiene" is the first step (see google) (well....solving whatever causes the stress is first whenever possible AND legal- fyi: throwing wives out of airplanes is not!)
2nd is meditation/prayer (yes prayer falls in the same category ) or sports/exercise.
Imagine your body as a bucket and stress as water. When the bucket is full 1 drop can make it over flow.
The above 2 don't take away the stress, but basically make the bucket bigger and helps to give you a bit more time to figure out the cause of your stress or allow you to cope with a higher level of stress.
If all of the above fails: sleep clinic, but I bet you 99% won't be needing that.
(And hopefully 0.1% will find the above useful.)

[frac]

Just forwarding this video from BALPA:



Cheers,

Marc-Olivier
From Paris

[Skud Run]

Nice Video

[I WAS Birddog]

A few months ago, someone posted an article on here about sleep deprivation and the effects it has on people.

I'm extremely glad this topic/concern is still being discussed within our community.
Also...it's not just about the rest periods...I believe it's about proper time away from work to recharge and reset and pursue other interests that charges ones positive outlook and mood when returning back to a regular work schedule. It creates a positive work environment.

Now you're all probably saying "HEY!!! BIRDDOG!!! WHAT'S WITH ALL THE PUPPY HUGS AND RAINBOWS KISSES?!?!"

Well kids...it is what it is.

Peace, love and Granola.....and get some rest.

...and one more thing...JOIN MY CULT MOFO'S www.twitter.com/iwasbirddog

[I WAS Birddog]

This post caught my eye initially and having a back ground in psychology I smiled and wanted to ask a couple of questions.
Having my head bitten off a few times on this forum by people much more knowledgeable than I will ever be on any subject I didn't.
Then after a sleepless night I decided to register with a different identity and just post.
I have always been a bad sleeper and I have chosen the wrong profession
One of the posters above mentioned having flown till 6 am and then getting messed up for the next day. I know that feeling well.
Having suffered through 2 periods of more than 1 year each with sleep less than 4 hrs. per day (documented) this is a touchy subject for me.
The first period was when I was cpt. on a medium jet. About half way through the period a friend did a line check on me and said: ok....it is safe and up to standard, but this is not how I know you. Either you call in sick or I will ground you.
He is still one of my best friends.

After a couple of months I flew again. I switched to a wide body and flying longer distances. Slowly it came back and sleep became less and less. This time I pulled the plug, but still I ended up in the hospital. Quite a bit of research later part of the problem seems to be melatonin production.
Since then we have done quite a bit of research on sleeping and rest, etc. (we=neurologist/psychiatrist/myself)
Ok, already a bit too long....
So-couple of quick points:
1-know your limits and also keep in mind you are subjective, not objective. (it might be difficult to judge yourself)
Play it on the safe side, even though your body can probably take more of a beating than you can imagine
2-alcohol, sex, drugs (legal or illegal) are temporary fixes.
See the comment about zopiclone above (imovane-brand name) Great little pill with a bit of a bitter after taste , but basically doesn't work any more after about 3 wks. or so. Then it becomes a psychological fix. If you do end up taking them once in a while: take half. Most cases this is enough. (don't get me wrong. Imovane is one of the more 'modern' sleeping pills. One big advantage is that it also allows you to have deep sleep which some of the 'older' pills don't. Also it doesn't stay in your system as long, but it is not meant for long term usage)
3-a sleeping problem for more than 6 months: get help

There are some physical causes, but the major cause for not being able to sleep is stress.
As a poster above wrote: "sleep hygiene" is the first step (see google) (well....solving whatever causes the stress is first whenever possible AND legal- fyi: throwing wives out of airplanes is not!)
2nd is meditation/prayer (yes prayer falls in the same category ) or sports/exercise.
Imagine your body as a bucket and stress as water. When the bucket is full 1 drop can make it over flow.
The above 2 don't take away the stress, but basically make the bucket bigger and helps to give you a bit more time to figure out the cause of your stress or allow you to cope with a higher level of stress.
If all of the above fails: sleep clinic, but I bet you 99% won't be needing that.
(And hopefully 0.1% will find the above useful.)

BEST POST EVER!!! Nicely done.

[Changes in Latitudes]

Squash Junky, I really appreciated your post as I have been in your shoes before and have slowly battled out of it. Did you have any luck with melatonin in your travels and do you know much about it? I find it effective, but long term side-effects just haven't been studied to my satisfaction.

[squash junky]

Thanks for the comments

Changes in Latitudes: as you wrote, there aren't too many long term studies available yet, so I do use melatonin, but only once in a while. Not sure if it helps or not.
Even though I only fly 2 trips per month or so I usually 'visit' 3 continents per trip and with a minimum of 2 night shifts per trip my body just might be a bit too screwed up for any pill.
It is usually sold as 3mg tablets, but from what I have read more than 0.8-1.1 mg does not produce better results.
One of the studies I read indicated that with prolonged usage your body might start to produce less melatonin, which could be irreversible, but I could only find the one study which had the negative conclusion though.
I did the reading a few years ago so probably there are more current studies.
These days I just stick to wine and fishing

[Carrier]

It 's all very well for you idealists to say that pilots should get so much sleep but do you think they do not want to? Do you think the Colgan pilots did second jobs as a hobby rather than to pay their bills? Do you think young single F/Os live six to an apartment, sleep on blow up mattresses, have no furniture, eat KD and drive clunkers from choice?

A pilot has a responsibility to pay his rent/mortgage, buy food for himself and his family, buy clothes for them all, pay for a car, pay utility bills, etc. If his pay is not enough to cover this what do you expect him to do? Have you missed the threads on poor pilot pay or are you part of the very small minority of adequately paid pilots and you also have an "I'm all right Jack" attitude towards those less well off than yourselves?

Extending rest time will only give a little more time for the second job.

This issue will not go away until pilots are adequately paid!

[skypirate88]

I have had some success with melatonin. Working nights has really changed my sleep habits but I find using the melatonin once and a while helpful. I dont think I get any better sleep, just able to get to sleep a little faster to maximize my time in the hotel.