Those senoirity handcuffs.

[Rockie]

However, the main difference between me and you Rockie, is that I don't EXPECT someone else to look after me and give me everything I want or think I deserve and unrelentingly whine about it when they don't!

WTF are you talking about? We provide a service for compensation and benefits just like you. I EXPECT contracts to be honoured. I EXPECT democratic rights be respected and not voided for purely commercial or ideological reasons.

You suggest you would just take it up the ass and walk away without complaint looking for another path. Pathetic if true, but I personally don't believe it. I think you're just full of shit.

[BverLuver]

WTF are you talking about? We provide a service for compensation and benefits just like you. I EXPECT contracts to be honoured. I EXPECT democratic rights be respected and not voided for purely commercial or ideological reasons.

You suggest you would just take it up the ass and walk away without complaint looking for another path. Pathetic if true, but I personally don't believe it. I think you're just full of shit.

Your contract was honoured and now it's expired. DEAL WITH IT!!

I have never said I would "take it up the ass". Maybe a reading lesson for yourself is in order, do not put words in my mouth. I said, in other simpler words for you, that I do not fear change and I find a way to utilize it to my advantage not sit and bitch about every little detail of life. I grumble about it just like everyone else, but then I find a way and not let it consume me. Life is too short and fun. Sorry if this is such a foreign concept to a union lifer. DEAL WITH IT!!

The employees had an opportunity to seize an extremely large scale of public support and instead chose to alienate customers and act like spoiled brats on national TV. I am not sure what leader rallied the union members to believe this would be advisable in order to gain support but I would suggest finding out and distancing yourselves from them as much as possible. To the general public, you are the villains keeping us from or inconveniencing our business, vacations, family and friends not the company. DEAL WITH IT!!

You simply have no concept of fiscal responsibility in business or politics do you Rockie? That has become very clear in reading back through your posts.

Once again as a million miler, at this point, I would rather fly American Airlines. DEAL WITH IT!!

Good day Rockie

BL

[vic777]

Your contract was honoured and now it's expired.

Not quite true, Air Canada often violates the Pilot's Contract, as the number of contract grievance cases that it loses will attest to.

[BverLuver]

Your contract was honoured and now it's expired.

Not quite true, Air Canada often violates the Pilot's Contract, as the number of contract grievance cases that it loses will attest to.

I will give you a partial on that and agree that it's not "quite" true.

BL

[c170b53]

you guys will all be in for a rude awakening when you are forced to live like the rest of us

Err.... BL I thought you previously suggested that you're really well off ? Please stick to A story in the interest of keeping it interesting.

[BverLuver]

you guys will all be in for a rude awakening when you are forced to live like the rest of us

Err.... BL I thought you previously suggested that you're really well off ? Please stick to A story in the interest of keeping it interesting.

I never said I was really well off, I said I have been successful in a side business, take that however you would like. Have you been taking the same deflection course as Rockie? The above quote was to mean living a "normal" life not an imaginary "protected" life. Nice try.

BL

[Rockie]

BL

In keeping with your theme of "just deal with it", may I suggest instead of bursting a blood vein because you can't book with another carrier without losing your tenuous grip on reality, just get over it. Not that hard BL. A simple phone call to Westjet or somebody else will suffice without boring us all with your incredible acumen at business.

I mean really...boring.

[BverLuver]

Finally Rockie, you finally understand how the rest of us feel about you and acpa. I assure you that none of this has changed my blood pressure one bit. I suspect the same cannot be said for you and the acpa membership. You have very tough times ahead, I do not envy your position at these crossroads. As I stated, I suspect that I am not the only once extremly loyal customer who has chosen a path of significantly less resistance. Tread carefully, one bad move and you could all be on the street. Sleep well!

BL

[Rockie]

You bore me with your supposed revelations that the Canadian public doesn't care about the relevant social issues here. It doesn't change the fact that Air Canada pilots will not give up their livelihood for the sake of somebody else's short term convenience. Not even yours however important you think it is.

Public support is just not that important because we are the employees. Public support is important to the company because they are they entity that has to make money, and so far the company has not given two shits what the public thinks.

Why don't you take your shallow, one dimensional rage and direct it at people who actually have the power to change how thing are going?

[BverLuver]

You bore me with your supposed revelations that the Canadian public doesn't care about the relevant social issues here. It doesn't change the fact that Air Canada pilots will not give up their livelihood for the sake of somebody else's short term convenience. Not even yours however important you think it is.

Public support is just not that important because we are the employees. Public support is important to the company because they are they entity that has to make money, and so far the company has not given two shits what the public thinks.

Why don't you take your shallow, one dimensional rage and direct it at people who actually have the power to change how thing are going?

Newsflash Rockie, they don't care. They care about getting from point A to point B without any interruptions or harassment that inconvenience them. Your "livelihood" would not exist without them so conveniencing the customers should be high priority and in your best interest as the front line people.

And yes Rockie, the membership does have the ability to enact change, you just haven't figured out how to do it in a responsible and beneficial manner.

Tell me Rockie, in your infinite wisdom, if customers go ahead and pick up the phone and call the other airlines, which you have told them to do, and decide they like that product better, which they will, where does that leave you when they don't come crawling back begging for a seat on your airline, which you seem to expect they will. But the customer doesn't matter right? It won't matter, as long as you have a seniority number and the DB pension, you will be taken care of forever, no need to plan life in the future, you have it all figured out. Customers are irrelevant in this fantastic plan. Why havent we all jumped on this gravy train? It can surely never go away!

It's always managements fault and the unions shoulder no blame at all, not just for this mess, but everything! It's such a repetitive cycle, you are absolutely right, it is boring, so amazingly predictable and the same BS with every union I have ever dealt with.

BL

[Eric Janson]

I realize there are alot of people who are kind of in to deep to pull out. But for alot of the pilots, (like the bottom 25-30%, there are way better jobs out there. Obviously not enough jobs for everyone, but they are there. (Some corporate jobs, offer a much better lifestyle, with comparable pay).

If only it were that simple...

"Better" or "Worse" are relative terms and will mean different things to different people.

For a lot of people leaving will mean moving overseas. Living in a different culture/climate/mentality requires a great deal of adjustment and flexibility. It is also normally a one-way street. There is no going back.

This isn't for everyone.

In other parts of the World there are no Labour Laws or Unions. Contracts are just pieces of paper and have zero value. Terms and Conditions are determined by the laws of Supply and Demand.

The Contract Market is a real snakepit - very easy to make the wrong choice. There are some incredibly unscrupulous Airlines/Recruiting Agencies out there.

There are probably a lot of First Officers in this group as well. A lot of overseas employers will not upgrade Expat First Officers. I am only aware of one Airline that takes high time A320 First Officers as Direct Entry Captains.

I worked for a "Career Airline" at one point. I was hired as DEC (that's a whole other story). On the first day the HFO came to talk to us. One of the first things said is "Nobody leaves <Airline>". I can still hear him saying it. Ten months later they were going to demote the DEC group to First Officer. The Airline arrogantly thought we would just accept it. Ten of us submitted our resignations within the space of a week. They weren't so arrogant after that!

This was probably the most difficult choice I have ever had to make in my Professional career to date. In the end it came down to a very simple question - would I be happy being First Officer? The answer was "No". After I figured that out it became a very easy choice.

I learned 2 very important lessons

-There is no such thing as a "Career Airline".
-Never give up your Command.

I have never regretted doing this. Things have worked out very differently than I had hoped but given the chance to do things over I'd make the same choices.

I'm currently working for small S Asian Flag Carrier. I have a 3 month renewable contract (3 months is the notice period). I have no seniority (one less thing to worry about). It is a very different World - I have had to learn how to live in this World.

I passed the 7 year mark with them March 01. Things aren't perfect here by any stretch of the imagination but when I add up the pluses and minuses it is still well into the plus side.

I realise that I'm at the opposite end of the scale to an Air Canada Pilot but I thought it would be useful to provide some perspective.

I like the term "Seniority Handcuffs" - sums things up very nicely IMHO.

[duranium]

It's amazing that I have been able to get through life, have Does the Union teach classes in deflection? You all seem to be masters. Try looking in the mirror and cleaning your own kitchen before rinsing the management down the drain. The arrogance being displayed by AC employees (not just pilots) is startling, you guys will all be in for a rude awakening when you are forced to live like the rest of us and realise that you are not special or above the general population. So stop trying to hold us hostage, we won't take it and we will not return.

BL

That, sir, has to be one of the most direct thruths of the problems besetting AC's future and AC pilots in particular. Their sense of intitlement is awsome. As I wrote many moons ago, the Me, Myself and I generation is steering the ship ACPA, Big problem

[Rockie]

And yes Rockie, the membership does have the ability to enact change, you just haven't figured out how to do it in a responsible and beneficial manner.

It's called right to strike/lockout. It works in 98% of the cases without any disruption whatsoever because both focus the mind and bring the two parties together to create a negotiated settlement agreeable to both. Absent that right you have what the government is enforcing that ensures the two sides remain far apart working in a contract that one side or the other did not agree to. Several pages ago I asked a general question how to achieve a mutually agreeable settlement without the right to strike and nobody came up with an answer. You're not either.

You just want it done so you don't have to make that second phone call to Westjet, but have no suggestions how to do it. You can't think of an alternative method of achieving labour peace can you?

You're pretty proud of your achievements, let's see you solve this one.

[BverLuver]

Your damn right I am proud of my achievements and I have already made the call to westjet, first trip is tomorrow so don't worry about me, which I know you won't, since I am just an insignificant former customer.

OK, well short of giving you an economics lesson, the first step is to understand your position. Your strengths, your weaknesses and tangible negotiating points. It seems that you think everything is a strength in your back pocket. You are failing to realize the weaknesses in your position aside from blaming the company and especially the government for their interference. There is never any accountability for the position the union has put themselves in. Take some accountability and humility in your stance and you will see that your union is not in as strong a position as you seem to think it is.

It is not my job to solve your problems and although I have knowledge of much more than you would ever give me credit for regarding the company, I do not have access to the vast amount of inside information required to solve this very complex problem. I am trying to get you to expand your thoughts and open both eyes not just the one you have one the prize. Stop seeing the problem as one dimensional. Clearly once you get a thought in your head its impossible to have any alteration to it and that, my friend, is the unions greatest downfall in a nutshell.

BL

[fly4ever]

WOW!!! Have not been here in awhile and now remember why, lol!
Rockie..... good luck. You need it, is all that can be said after reading your posts.
Your reality is going to change and this customer is trying to tell you that.
You can not hear anything over your own voice.
If what you are saying is how the majority feel, then the company will not make it.
Really sad times for the once great AC after 75 years.

[Rockie]

This company isn't going to make it I agree. The plan is to move all the assets over to a badly run pseudo-low cost imitation of Air Canada and what used to be Air Canada will die a protracted preplanned death. The writing is on the wall.

What nobody here realizes is that the same thing will happen to the LCC, because these guys don't know how to run any kind of airline whereas Westjet does. New employees aren't going to fix the problem.

[noflex]

7500!!!!!!

Geez. Hey Mod's is it possible to start a forum called "The octagon" or "The bickering room",or something like that? Then when a thread gets hijacked with unproductive, unrelated non sense; those involved in the debate/pi**ing contest, can take it to that forum.

So far this thread has only confirmed what I said in the OP. AC's pilots "appear" to always be bitc**ng. So I ask again, What is it that keeps them there? I think it's an interesting question. Mabey it's not that bad, and these guys just like a bit of drama? Or mabey it is really bad, but something is actually keeping them from finding a better job. Anyone care to discuss the OP?

[Topspin]

The employees had an opportunity to seize an extremely large scale of public support and instead chose to alienate customers and act like spoiled brats on national TV. I am not sure what leader rallied the union members to believe this would be advisable in order to gain support but I would suggest finding out and distancing yourselves from them as much as possible. To the general public, you are the villains keeping us from or inconveniencing our business, vacations, family and friends not the company. DEAL WITH IT!!

What course of action would you expect the rank & file to take to the events that occurred at Pearson? I don't know about YYZ but on the left coast the union (A union that I really don't care for or respect) had no role in the walk out and was instrumental in getting them back to work.

As somebody who will from time to time give money to Air Canada to haul me around, I view what they did as a perfectly reasonable response, and I am not alone in that opinion. Regardless, this is Canada. Public opinion for or against governments/organizations/companies shifts with the wind, never lasting more than a few months. People have extremely short memories, else Stephan Harper, Dalton McGimpy & Titsy Clark would almost certainly not be employed. (Not that I would suggest the alternative to be better or worse)

However at the end of the day, as somebody who does not fly for a living or work for either airline, by far the biggest factor that would influence my choice and the majority of the flying once a year public in the debate of Air Canada VS WestJet is......cost. I will bet every penny that I'll make for the rest of my life that Joe the plumber who spends all day flapping about Air Canada will happily book on them if it saves his blue collar family a hundred bucks a head. The majority of the US carriers make Air Canada & WestJet both look like Emirates, and still people head down in droves to save a buck.

What happens to Air Canada this year will have little to do with it's long term ticket sales or public support. We've been here before and we'll be here again, nothing need change.

[Old fella]

Good points Topspin. Like you I never worked for an airline and again, like you said. Throw on a good sale, run it for a few months (even at a loss) and the nasty’s who hate the big red one will plunk down their arses, no doubt about it. AC will be alive and well and ole “Rockie” will have a job driving something.
Run good fares for trips down south and the real old “nasty’s” who like to sun their wrinkled arses and really bitch about AC will be the first ones to “beer belly” up. No doubt about that as well……..

[CID]

BverLuver, I think you're your comments are quite "inappropriate" and "disrespectful" to Rockie. Perhaps an apology is in order.

[robertsailor1]

Rockie can dish it out pretty good, I wouldn't worry about hurting his feelings. I'm sure he can take it as well.

[Rockie]

Your damn right I am proud of my achievements and I have already made the call to westjet, first trip is tomorrow so don't worry about me, which I know you won't, since I am just an insignificant former customer.

Say hi to Tony for me.

Of course you're free to fly on any airline you choose for whatever reason you wish. But in fairness I think you should tell us what your business is so those of us who still believe in democratic rights can exercise a similar choice.

[BverLuver]

BverLuver, I think you're your comments are quite "inappropriate" and "disrespectful" to Rockie. Perhaps an apology is in order.

Once again you have proven my point. If you can't see the difference between what I have said vs. what you have said then I guess you are just one of "those" people. Take care of yourself CID.

BL

[c170b53]

"BverLuver" does make 1 good point

I think this was his best

I know nothing about anything

,
Possibly he meant everything?.
Which likely will be explained as another deflection, unions are bad, them vs us blah, blah AC hate.
As mentioned the pension plan enrollment was a condition of employment at AC. A fixed percentage of each paycheck gross is deposited into the plan by the company for that member. It is a forced savings plan and for many it is a successful way to begin saving early in life when saving may not be a priority. If the markets and the long term interest rates are within their normal trading ranges our company actually has to pay nothing at all into the plan. An employee pays for his entire pension plan through his contributions and the investment returns of the plan. Currently the plan has north of 10 billion but has liabilities should it be wound up today at about 12B. That's the problem; the OFSI rules.
DC vs DB? DC is no risk to an employer, the risk of the plan rests on the employee. DB plan performance risks are the employers concern as they act as the plan administrator and are responsible for the plan's success. In the "normal" market, DB plans were not under assault because it cost the employer aside from administering costs, nothing. Whereas in a DC plan the employer makes "matching" contributions to his employees contribution and the employee steers his plan. Both employers negotiate the benefit level and both may forgo pay increases by making plan improvements. Thus a company may put off immediate pay cost increases with pension improvement promises. As you might have guessed, AC employees pay suffered this fate and now we are faced with conceding more in pension reform.
O.K "If you guys hate it so much, why not leave?"
Not so simple..pension rules, as in penalties for retiring early and specific rules governing when a commuted value may or may not be taken often tie the hands of anyone who's contributions are "vested".

Teacher must be wise because

Give me the extra money to invest in my RRSP as I see fit and on my retirement day a handshake and maybe a plaque is all I need from them. This is coming from someone with a DB plan.

You've missed your calling, not many can say this, good for you but you're likely an exception.

Finally

Something like 75% of Canadians don't even have company pensions, they have to make their own future.

Sadly many will not save at all and not fare well.
BL bring on the negativity.

[BverLuver]

Which likely will be explained as another deflection, unions are bad, them vs us blah, blah AC hate.

Actually, if you were to read posts of mine from as little as a month or so ago, I was a major supporter of AC and their employees. However, in more recent weeks, it has become abundantly clear how little the employees and the company care about the customers. You know, the ones that buy the tickets giving you a reason to strap yourself into a big aluminum tube. The sense of entitlement shown by the employees (executives included) is staggering and the lack of respect from both sides to the customer is undeniable. It's out there for everyone to see. Blame it on media/corporate spin whatever you will, but it wasn't management chasing down passengers into the parking lot or going on illegal strikes disrupting innocent bystanders ability to conduct their daily lives. As I said before, the public will simply not allow you to hold them hostage, nor should they.

As for the lesson on pensions, thank you. I'm glad you spent so much time breaking down the most basic aspects of DB vs. DC pensions that a 14yr old already understands. As always though, it leaves out some key info that makes it not so cut and dry from the employee or company aspect and you know it, or at least should know, if you are trying to give lessons on pension merits.

So, rather than getting further into a debate that doesn't affect me anymore with people that are obviously much smarter than I and more insistent on attacking me and my "lack of knowledge" rather than discussing how the customer should be looked after as a bare necessity in sustaining a viable operation/jobs, I will simply bow out. As you say, I know nothing about everything, so why bother right? Any chance you know what my side business is? I think you would be fairly surprised, who knows maybe we have even crossed paths.

Sleep tight, enjoy your "negotiations"

BL