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Magnetron
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:08 pm 
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HavaJava wrote:
flyincanuck wrote:
There is a lot mentioned about trim runaway, as well.


From what I understand, the electric trim was permanently disconnected...are you thinking it somehow reconnected itself? I guess it could be a possibility depending on how maintenance performed the work, but I doubt it...

I don't remember 100% but it was most likely disconnected on all the bonanzas at the time. And they pulled out the circuit breaker so no one can push it in and have deferred it on all journey logs and sent out a safety bulletin with regards to it.

just to clarify some things on that end.


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Big Pistons Forever
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:40 pm 
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Another factor is training in a high performance aircraft. If a spiral dive is allowed to develop a Bonanza will accelerate from cruise to VNE in 7 seconds. Similarly the stall characteristics are not dangerous but definitely more demanding than a Cessna 172. It is pretty hard to loose control of a Cessna 172 but these guys were flying a much more demanding aircraft. Sadly it appears that the instructors skills were not up to the task. Even more regrettably the schools response was not to address the instructor experience deficit it was to impose such tight flight restrictions that most advanced training will become largely ineffective in preparing students for their first flying job.

I was recently asked for an opinion on whether or not to apply to Seneca from a young PPL. My advice was unequivocal.......Don't apply, there are other options where you can get better training for less money


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Colonel Sanders
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:00 pm 
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Quote:
high performance aircraft


Excellent point. Years ago, Richard Collins - I doubt anyone remembers him, now - proposed that a different instrument rating should be required for retractable gear aircraft, because of how slippery they are, and how fast they can get into trouble.

People here probably won't remember the FAA re-certification hassle of the Piper Malibu - they were routinely coming apart in cloud - but the bottom line from the FAA was that doctors should turn on the pitot heat in cloud.

I met a guy who bent the wings on a Piper Meridian. He is lucky to be alive.

It's disappointing that the TSB report didn't address this.


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CpnCrunch
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:36 pm 
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Why not use a retractable 182?


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slam525i
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:06 pm 
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Colonel Sanders wrote:
Quote:
high performance aircraft


Excellent point. Years ago, Richard Collins - I doubt anyone remembers him, now - proposed that a different instrument rating should be required for retractable gear aircraft, because of how slippery they are, and how fast they can get into trouble.


I miss Collins' articles in Flying, almost as much as Gordon Baxter's.

Would you say that proposal is still valid giving the very fast fixed-gear singles like the Corvalis & Cirrus? (I've never flown anything faster than a Cardinal, so I genuinely don't know.)


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Doc
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:43 am 
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Colonel Sanders wrote:
Quote:
high performance aircraft


Excellent point. Years ago, Richard Collins - I doubt anyone remembers him, now - proposed that a different instrument rating should be required for retractable gear aircraft, because of how slippery they are, and how fast they can get into trouble.

It's disappointing that the TSB report didn't address this.


Collins has some points, BUT any instructor with a Class 1 should never have had a problem here. Either that, or the Class 1 instructor rating needs some very serious rethinking. Obviously it's woefully inadequate as is.
It's a good thing the plug is being pulled on the Bonanzas. TC could pull Seneca's OC until they show their instructors are actaully qualified to perform the duties they are assigned. Student pilots, regardless of their own experience level have a RIGHT to assume they wont DIE simply because the instructor is underqualified/undertrained for the job at hand.
I find TSB reports, for the most part, so sanitized and "cleaned" up to be pretty much useless. These kids died, and the "excuse' seems to be, "my oh my, the Bonanza is a slippery little sucker, ain't it?"


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bverwegen
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:10 am 
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The main theme seems to be is the level of experience the instructor had. I agree that higher time instructors with real IFR experience would be best suited for flight training, but the way most instructors get paid I don't believe anyone would really want to leave a well paying (or not so well paying) airline job to go instruct for peanuts. I have came across a few awesome instructors up to my CPL who have really taught me some great things, but that is with doing BIF flights and tracking, nothing to do with approaches, holds, etc, where the experience can really help out the student.


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Brown Bear
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:30 am 
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OMFG! that is all.....
:bear: :bear:


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