F-35 looking more like white elephant

[2R]

Looks like some Chinese spies have been caught in a Barbican.

On March 11, The Sunday Times in London reported that, "Chinese spies hacked into computers belonging to BAE Systems, Britain's biggest defence company, to steal details about the design, performance and electronic systems" of the F-35. The jet's advanced radar capabilities were thought to be one of the targets.

That report adds confirmation to a Wall Street Journal report about a hacking attack on BAE in 2009. China denied the claims then, and again after last month's story.

[cdnpilot77]

From msn.ca

Canada will re-examine the F-35 jet fighter program following the release of an auditor general's report today that slams the Defence Department regarding its compliance with procurement policies.
CBC News has learned that Auditor General Michael Ferguson will focus his criticism on the air force and on procurement officials inside the Defence Department.
Ferguson's report will be tabled in the House of Commons at 10 a.m. ET. Later in the morning, he will hold a news conference to share his findings.
The auditor general is expected to say that officials inside the Defence Department misled government ministers and did not provide accurate information about everything from the cost of the Lockheed Martin fighters to the delivery date.
The government is expected to strip the Defence Department of its responsibility for the program and set up a special secretariat of deputy ministers inside the Public Works Department to manage the program.
The Treasury Board will review all Defence Department documents in order to ensure accuracy and more oversight, as well as to better inform both the government and the public about the F-35 program.
Government changes course
Julian Fantino, the associate minister of national defence, first suggested to the House defence committee in March that the purchase of the F-35 was not a foregone conclusion.

[Old fella]

About time DND out of control spending in this was taken down several notches...........

[Moose47]

Removed

[2R]

There are many forms of corruption.
The process used to get involved in this project was made by the masters of corruption ,the previous devious lieberals.
For well educated men to say they could not see this coming is sad.
That career military men failed to excercise extreme prejudice in this process and could not see this shitstorm coming is troubling.
The data that should have been available to the Admirals,Marshalls,and Generals would have made it easy for a prosimian to make the right decision.
Small wonder the Taliban are winning in Afghanistan with these losers running the gong show.

[frosti]

About time DND out of control spending in this was taken down several notches...........

Spending, what spending? I don't ever recall a contract being signed. Looks like all that will happen is a few people will get a slap on the wrist and it is business as usual.

[Old fella]

About time DND out of control spending in this was taken down several notches...........

Spending, what spending? I don't ever recall a contract being signed. Looks like all that will happen is a few people will get a slap on the wrist and it is business as usual.

.


About time proposed DND out of control spending in this was taken down several notches.

Someone could probably suggest based on what has come out in the AG report, thank Christ nothing was signed because the poor beleaguered taxpayer would have taken one f--- of a hit like nothing else seen before.
Business as usual, of course it will. The high end people at NDHQ(upon retirement) running this affair will get lucrative positions as lobbyists/advisors in the various aerospace firms associated.

[iflyforpie]

About time DND out of control spending in this was taken down several notches...........

Spending, what spending? I don't ever recall a contract being signed. Looks like all that will happen is a few people will get a slap on the wrist and it is business as usual.

Well you can't very well cut what you've already spent now can you. At least somebody is putting the brakes on the program.

Conservatives swept out of power next election over this. Bye bye F-35.

[AuxBatOn]

About time DND out of control spending in this was taken down several notches...........

Spending, what spending? I don't ever recall a contract being signed. Looks like all that will happen is a few people will get a slap on the wrist and it is business as usual.

Well you can't very well cut what you've already spent now can you. At least somebody is putting the brakes on the program.

Conservatives swept out of power next election over this. Bye bye F-35.

I think this process will just prove that the F-35 was just the airplane of choice from the beginning.

[frosti]

At least somebody is putting the brakes on the program.

What brakes? Where did it say this purchase is on hold? Let me say this again for those who are a little slower. No contract has been signed, thus no money has been spent.

This issue won't bring down the Conservatives in 3 years, it didn't last election. I was very surprised that the cons got such an overwhelming majority, it just showed that the F35 wasn't an issue for most Canadians - or they support the program. Seems that the minority is just more vocal on this issue. It's like that one little kid in class just begging for attention by kicking and screaming.

[iflyforpie]

It didn't bring them down last election because they were saying it cost half the price it (as far as we know) will cost currently. The general public took their word for it. Heck, even Aux Bat did and tried his Jedi mind trick earlier in this thread to make us believe it too. Those of us more savvy in aviation know there are only three types of figures: over-budget, ridiculously over-budget, and ludicrously over-budget.

But it doesn't take too much research to find out that 75mill a copy is nowhere near the price.... the price is only going to go up and the delivery date only going to get postponed... all while the Cons are revealing an austerity budget. If healthcare and civil servants are getting cut, what do you think is going to happen to the DND? It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see where this is headed. Why the sudden about face when it is going to have severe political repercussions for the Conservatives?

[Expat]

It looks very convenient to me, that the AG report came out that strong. And the PM was unusually quiet about the findings. All at a time when the PM wants to add some distance between Ottawa and Washington. Very convenient indeed...

[AuxBatOn]

It didn't bring them down last election because they were saying it cost half the price it (as far as we know) will cost currently. The general public took their word for it. Heck, even Aux Bat did and tried his Jedi mind trick earlier in this thread to make us believe it too.

My arguments still stand. The price figures quoted don't mean anything until they are put into context... Do you want to have the price of the airframe only, maintenance included, infrastructure included, pilot salaries included, etc, etc.

Again, I will it will be prove the JSF is still the aircraft of choice and that the cost will not be much higher than expected (when put into their proper perspective).

[Colonel Sanders]

The F-35 is dead. It's so politically toxic, Canada could be offered a fleet of them tomorrow for free, and would turn them down.

Read the newspaper.

[trampbike]

Read the newspaper.

I thought everything that could be found in the news was biased and way too left leaning to be even considered valuable...

Well you can't very well cut what you've already spent now can you. At least somebody is putting the brakes on the program.

What do you want to cut? So far, we received almost double what we invested in the JSF program since 1997 in industrial benefits.
Who is putting brakes? Have you actually read the AG report?

But it doesn't take too much research to find out that 75mill a copy is nowhere near the price....

What do you include in the price? Over what period of time? When we speak only in term of airframes and engines (acquisition costs), 75M is still pretty close to the reality. It doesn't take too much research to find that out. Australia and Norway continue to think they'll pay something close to that.

I think this process will just prove that the F-35 was just the airplane of choice from the beginning.

Exactly. To hold a fair competition thought, Canada would have to leave the MoU. If the F-35 is the winner, we'll then buy it for much more money and get way less industrial benefits. What are the opponents of the project going to whine about then?


I personally have no idea if the F35 is the best option for Canada. I simply can't know. I don't have the knowledge and the experience necessary. I do however have way too much time to read everything that can be found about this procurement, and I have to say that the amount of misleading articles in the medias is astonishing.

The AG report, the MoU, Canada First Defence Strategy paper, Rideau institutes essays, GAO reports, LM contracts etc, can all be found on the internet. People should try and read all these instead of claiming to know all there is to know by reading short and dramatic newspaper articles.

[Expat]

It is interesting that they leave it to the military to decide what is the best plane for the future.
Since the military has little to say about what conflict we will get into, and what will be our role, this is a bit amusing...

[Rockie]

It is interesting that they leave it to the military to decide what is the best plane for the future.
Since the military has little to say about what conflict we will get into, and what will be our role, this is a bit amusing...

They don't leave it to the military to decide anything to do with capital acquisitions and they never have. Successive governments tell the military what they're going to get and equipment requirements are written to accommodate political purposes all the time. This government in particular are pathological control freaks like this country has never seen before.

[trampbike]

It is interesting that they leave it to the military to decide what is the best plane for the future.

Who would you suggest should be in charge of writing the SOR?

[Old fella]

What’s truly appalling about this (F-35) is the deception to the tune of 10B – that is a lot of money. The Public accounts Officer (Page) said so and the AG backed him up. The Canadian population was deliberately misled by DND, Harper Government and certain elements of the Public Service at the DM/ADM level. The Generals wanted this toy and lies were told. The Canadian taxpayer is pissed and those sediments are being expressed by most, if not all of the various columnists/editorialists/ on all sides of the political spectrum. That’s the crux of the issue – we were lied to and heads should roll, demotions handed out.

[frosti]

What’s truly appalling about this (F-35) is the deception to the tune of 10B – that is a lot of money.

The CBC costs $1B a year to run. THAT is a lot of money for practically nothing.

[Expat]

What’s truly appalling about this (F-35) is the deception to the tune of 10B – that is a lot of money.

The CBC costs $1B a year to run. THAT is a lot of money for practically nothing.

The CBC means a lot to a lot of people. Besides, that 1B is spent in Canada.

[Expat]

The debate now in the press has turned very political. The final decision will most likely be a political one. I would just like to see the Keystone favor returned. Contract cancelled.

[Old fella]

What’s truly appalling about this (F-35) is the deception to the tune of 10B – that is a lot of money.

The CBC costs $1B a year to run. THAT is a lot of money for practically nothing.

.

The CBC cost of 1B isn't hidden away and there is no deceptive practices to keep the Canadian people misinformed on the public broadcaster. Unlike this 10B science fiction story............

[frosti]

What’s truly appalling about this (F-35) is the deception to the tune of 10B – that is a lot of money.

The CBC costs $1B a year to run. THAT is a lot of money for practically nothing.

.

The CBC cost of 1B isn't hidden away and there is no deceptive practices to keep the Canadian people misinformed on the public broadcaster. Unlike this 10B science fiction story............

You are right on that one, CBC just wastes money openly with fine broadcasting and unbiased reporting.

[2R]

Rudyard Kipling wrote about the carnage of World War One:
If any ask why we died,Tell them because our Fathers lied.

The lies being told to sell this defective unproven project may cost more than just money.
These contracts are annexation by deception and corruption.When our own Government cannot control the costs.Who does control the costs ?
Why all the LIES ?
Those who lied to Parliament should be charged with TREASON.