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vic777ER
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:26 pm 
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Rumour has it, AC will be sending the Embraers to the regionals. I'm hearing 60 aircraft will go to AC Express by 2014 and a bunch of baby buses leaving the fleet as part of the new restructured Air Canada.Seems to me new hires leaving good jobs to fly at AC dont stand a chance let alone hundreds of other pilots currently at the mainline.
Is becoming a pilot at Air Canada a thing of the past. Hope this is'nt true, just what im hearing on the line.


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hnl
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:58 pm 
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vic777ER wrote:
Rumour has it, AC will be sending the Embraers to the regionals. I'm hearing 60 aircraft will go to AC Express by 2014 and a bunch of baby buses leaving the fleet as part of the new restructured Air Canada.Seems to me new hires leaving good jobs to fly at AC dont stand a chance let alone hundreds of other pilots currently at the mainline.
Is becoming a pilot at Air Canada a thing of the past. Hope this is'nt true, just what im hearing on the line.



What a bunch of useless speculation. It's not going to happen. Why get everyone upset over nothing.


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vic777ER
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:13 pm 
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What a bunch of useless speculation. It's not going to happen. Why get everyone upset over nothing.

Sorry hnl no speculation here. This is comming from the top flying brass and line pilots. Not trying to get people upset here at all my friend just trying to get all the facts.


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sanjet
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:14 pm 
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Troll alert


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Big Pistons Forever
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:46 pm 
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No other mainline major carrier operates E-Jets...........


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29chev
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:52 pm 
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Jet Blue ...US airways.... :roll:


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BverLuver
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:53 pm 
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Big Pistons Forever wrote:
No other mainline major carrier operates E-Jets...........


In North America, doesn't US Airways operate them? I would classify them as a mainline carrier. It is slightly more common around the world though for a mainline carrier to operate this type.

BL

Edit: 29chev beat me to it, COPA is another big carrier that operates them


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pika
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:59 pm 
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Quote:
It's not going to happen.


After all that has occurred in the last few years are we really still this f***ing stupid as a group?

We'v already seen how this plays out with the RJ's that AC mainline USED to operate.


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hithere
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:25 pm 
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And please remember that Express does not necessarily mean Jazz. As a matter of fact I would say that if The Emb goes anywhere, it would've far more likely to go to Sky Regional


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c170b53
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:40 pm 
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Small; Delta connector Compass operates 175's. Passenger pleasing cabins for a small plane.


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Big Pistons Forever
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:29 pm 
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I stand corrected US Airways does operate the E jet, I always thought that the US Airways E-jet was run by a regional for them. Jet Blue IMO doesn't count as it is a niche low cost North American carrier and thus is not comparable to a full service domestic and intercontinental legacy carrier like Air Canada

So let me rephrase: Are there any legacy full service major carriers with a fleet mix and route map comparable to Air Canada, anywhere in the world that operate E jets with mainline crews and in the mainline route structure. Off hand I can't think of any other that operate regional jets. So why is that ?


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BverLuver
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:36 pm 
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Big Pistons Forever wrote:
I stand corrected US Airways does operate the E jet, I always thought that the US Airways E-jet was run by a regional for them. Jet Blue IMO doesn't count as it is a niche low cost North American carrier and thus is not comparable to a full service domestic and intercontinental legacy carrier like Air Canada

So let me rephrase: Are there any legacy full service major carriers with a fleet mix and route map comparable to Air Canada, anywhere in the world that operate E jets with mainline crews and in the mainline route structure. Off hand I can't think of any other that operate regional jets. So why is that ?



Pretty sure Alitalia, COPA, LOT, Egypt Air, Gulf Air, Kenya Airways, Air Nigeria, Royal Jordanian, Saudi Arabian Airlines, Oman Air, Finnair all operate EJets and would be classified as mainlines. These are off the top of my head, I'm sure I can research more if you would like.

BL


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29chev
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:45 pm 
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vic777ER

:lol:

vic777ER wrote:
All I know is the E-jet wont be with mainline in the next few years and thats a fact. Any one that's been with AC long enough knows this


Well I've been with mainline for 12 years and I don't know it....but that's just me......I hope your wrong!

29chev


Last edited by 29chev on Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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vic777ER
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:11 pm 
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29 Chev are you for real? This isnt a pissing contest who fly's E-jets around the world. It really doesnt matter how many carriers fly the E-jet. All I know is the E-jet wont be with mainline in the next few years and thats a fact. Any one that's been with AC long enough knows this. Trust me when i say this is only the first order of business on the restructuring of the new Air Canada and NO! this will not be a member vote. We will see major changes at AC in the next two to three years. (major) This is the only way AC will be able to servive in such a competitive industry.

Cheers


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Hold short
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:34 am 
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stir stir :D


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chatman
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:46 am 
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Air Canada will eventually be international only.
Jazz for regional
Air Canada Express for domestic
AC low cost who knows what that will be called (Tango, Zip, Zoom) will be their 2 tier hiring spree


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HighT5
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:42 am 
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It will happen, question is who can operate them cheaper.

Can Jazz compete with SkyRegional without making sacrifices to their wages and working conditions?

If they're transferred to a tier 2 in two years, will current new hires have enough seniority to stay at mainline?


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av8ts
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:24 am 
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Holy moly 29chev could you make that any longer. Please nobody quote him. If the Embraers go to Express it will be Skyregional where non-unionized pilots will do the work for lower wages and working conditions.

Setting the bar a little lower for everyone.


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CL-Skadoo!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:01 am 
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:P :wink: I feel better now.

How can your union sit back and let this slide?


Last edited by CL-Skadoo! on Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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sanjet
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:42 am 
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Skadoo you a**hole :smt040


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mduffy
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:51 am 
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I've heard the same - can't reveal source. Sorry.


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pika
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:05 am 
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So it's official, skadoo is an ahole.


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Takeoff OK
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:40 am 
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Can somebody who actually knows anything about AC's scope language please post some details on it and how the E-jet flying is or is not protected right now? My understanding is that it should require member-ratified concessions to release the Embraers. But considering the Sky Regional fiasco, is that language now toast?


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Rockie
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:05 pm 
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Rovinescu has made no secret of his admiration for Jetstar and if further proof of his intentions are needed one only has to look at Aveos. The only thing stopping him from doing it is our scope language which he wants eliminated, and will achieve with the government's help.

So it isn't just the Embraer's he will move out, eventually it will be the whole fleet when he finishes funneling all the funds he can from mainline into the new LCC. At that point Air Canada will be liquidated and the employees and shareholders (BofD take note here) will be cast adrift.

This is his plan and everybody knows it. Rovinescu has provided absolutely no assurances it won't happen.


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rudder
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:44 pm 
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The issue here is not paint jobs and trade marks but rather cost structure. CR wants a Jazz cost structure for the EMB's and a SkyRegional cost structure for the Jazz/Express fleet. He would also like some relief to reduce costs on the contemplated 319/767 leisure routes to those that exist in the sked charter world.

The question is how close is he to achieving this desired outcome? Given the legislation/arbitration looming, I would say that he is as close as he has ever been on the EMB as any change in the scope line will put some or all of EMB's in play. As for Jazz, it may ultimately take an AC CCAA filing to have the ability to outsource the current Jazz/Express flying to other bidders prior to 2020. Some degree of cost reduction could be achieved as a part of a broader CPA renegotiation with Jazz involving fleet substitutions of larger aircraft allowing the smaller gauge aircraft to be reassigned to either SKY or Tier III.

Mainline labour had better hope that it is CR's wish to use them on the leisure routes because if it is not there are actually other employees/operators that are capable of turn-key operations (Jazz/Boeing for example. All of the infrastructure and technical qualifications are already there except ETOPS certification which would be achievable after just one season of north-south flying). In the event of an AC total collapse, some would argue that Jazz is now the logical replacement for AC North American operations. It turns out that operating large aircraft is not rocket science and the Jazz operational footprint already now extends coast-to-coast and to Central America, South America, and a very large portion of the Caribbean. New investment capital will always find the most efficient home.

How would one describe this? A very bad situation for mainline labour. It is the AC pilots that have defined what is mainline flying in their collective agreement and the other employee groups have simply benefited by association. If this legislation/arbitration process redefines mainline flying, a lot of current AC employees will be exposed. AVEOS should be a wake up call to everybody. Nothing is guaranteed anymore. And if AC files for CCAA then a bad situation will become much worse for labour. Nobody would invest money in AC in its current form. Nobody.

CR has a plan and it would appear that he may have some success in implementing it. What is labour's response? You could cry in your milk, talk about the past, and play the victim. Or come up with a better plan. And do not waste your time talking about status quo. That was the 2003 and the 2009 plan and it did not work.

ACPA has few if any allies. Just a bunch of advisors steering them in the wrong direction. Even the anarchist movement of 27 advocating a return to TA1 is not going to move the company nearly far enough to survive in the long term. And with the government now believing that the only person with a viable plan is CR, they are going to clear the way to facilitate its implementation hoping that they can get AC off of their radar screen as it has become a gross distraction with zero political value. It represents a failed privatisation.

So, what is ACPA advocating as a realistic alternative? Dressing up like pilots and going on TV looking for sympathy from the public. Filing legal challenges and pretending that time is not running out. This process is moving at 100 mph and ACPA looks like they are standing still. Maybe this is how it was supposed to be since none of the labour at AC seem prepared to advocate for the necessity of change in order to survive. There is a much bigger picture out there but AC labour looks like a deer in the headlights.


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