Air Canada sending Embraer 175/190s to Express

[hithere]

[quote][/quote]
"2 sky regional RJ900"

So Sky Regional would get some RJ 900 when Jazz already operates the exact same aircraft(RJ 705 is the exact same airframe with 75 seats instead of 90)
How would that be cost effective? Answer: Because they will fly them for peanuts, just like the are on the DH4.Brilliant! Well done Sky!

[Mig29]

"2 sky regional RJ900"

So Sky Regional would get some RJ 900 when Jazz already operates the exact same aircraft(RJ 705 is the exact same airframe with 75 seats instead of 90)
How would that be cost effective? Answer: Because they will fly them for peanuts, just like the are on the DH4.Brilliant! Well done Sky!

Why is that the fault of Sky pilots?? I'm sorry, but the guys who don't have a job will do it, it's been proven times and times again in our industry. ACPA let Sky slide in being blinded by their outrage that Jazz is flying for Thomas Cook. Now, I'm not saying that was the right path for Jazz either, and that could have been all resolved "in house" before allowing a NON-UNIONIZED airline under your wing. But ultimately Calin outplayed us ALL in this game and now we are ALL going to pay the price. Guy should get a Nobel Prize!

AC will lose portion of it's flying to Jazz/Sky/XXX and Jazz will give up smaller turbo-props to Georgian/CMA/EVAS, and we will ALL work on bigger plans for less.

How exciting!! Can't wait for it!

[mbav8r]

I'm not saying that was the right path for Jazz either

Mig, what path should Jazz take, exactly? The path AVEOS took?
Calins words,
Mr. Rovinescu said it was Aveos’ failure to diversify its business
The company failed in part because of productivity issues and its inability to adequately diversify its customer base, Rovinescu said.

So, I'll ask again, what path should Jazz take?
Death by 2020 or diversify it customer base?

[biatch]

Jazz is probably poised to gain from this. So is Sky Reg and some others of course, including US regionals/ Star Alliance partners. ALPA has a very strong team in place. It is unfortunate though that the situation has deteriorated to this. Too bad pilots can't stick together.

[Fanblade]

Excuse my French...but ARE YOU #%$@ing SERIOUS!?!?!

HavaJava,

I get your point about the reserve rules. I'm new. I live them. They aren't even legal IMO.

But i was specifically referring to productivity. Starting with 10 reserves at the beginning of the month. The top 5 pass everything. The bottom 5 fly out. Month end comes and havoc breaks out. Capt as RP. Draft.

Think about it. Our collective agreement is designed to drop flying. It was great in the day when bloating employment was the name of the game for unions. But it reduces productivity. Your too expensive not to be competitively productive.

Between poductivity, pension and scope? That is why we are headed for arbitration. The government realizes we won't give to become viable. So they will take to make it happen. In their minds they are saving Air Canada employees from themselves.

[accumulous]

Excuse my French...but ARE YOU #%$@ing SERIOUS!?!?!

HavaJava,

I get your point about the reserve rules. I'm new. I live them. They aren't even legal IMO.

But i was specifically referring to productivity. Starting with 10 reserves at the beginning of the month. The top 5 pass everything. The bottom 5 fly out. Month end comes and havoc breaks out. Capt as RP. Draft.

How does WestJet's contract compare to all that?

[Fanblade]

Excuse my French...but ARE YOU #%$@ing SERIOUS!?!?!

HavaJava,

I get your point about the reserve rules. I'm new. I live them. They aren't even legal IMO.

But i was specifically referring to productivity. Starting with 10 reserves at the beginning of the month. The top 5 pass everything. The bottom 5 fly out. Month end comes and havoc breaks out. Capt as RP. Draft.

How does WestJet's contract compare to all that?

No reserve. All extra flying covered with voluntary draft. There is no drop for draft. Just pay.

[ChallengerDan]

ACPA let Sky slide in being blinded by their outrage that Jazz is flying for Thomas Cook.

Its been argued time and time again here. Members of this forum have said repeatedly that Jazz is one of the reasons AC is having difficulties. That was before the current round of negotiations that started last year.

While I am not familiar with the 757 rates, the Jazz pilot group being socialists, it seems that Jazz is actually charging market rates for the TC operations, it is just not going exclusively to the 757 pilot but spread to all of the pilots. I say this is great. Shouldn't unions be exactly about that? The greater good of everyone? I do realize that ACPA doesn't work like that and that it can demonstrated that their system is more fair. It really depends on your background, convictions, ethics, etc. I think I can say that ACPA WAWCON system is a little be more design on the capitalist system, while Jazz' is a little be more socialist by design. As long as each member base is ok with it I don't see a problem. I am not pilot, I'm an AME. I don't get a different salary wether I sign-off on a L35 or E175 even though the E175 flies 10 time more people.

When ACPA let the SkyReg go through last year, they failed to realize that protecting what is right beneath them actually protects themselves, as per design they should always have it a little better than who is right after them. After looking out for themselves, Jazz unions should probably be their biggest allies, and that is not only for pilots. As long as everyone flying the Maple Leaf are not cooperating, CR is always going to win. Always. He IS that smart.

ACPA and Alpa need to remember that we are all fighting for the same thing: WAWCON. Let the guys at the top fight for market share. Support each other. let them fight at the top, not among ourselves.

[Fanblade]

. As long as everyone flying the Maple Leaf are not cooperating, CR is always going to win. Always. He IS that smart.

This is about surviving. Not winning.

AC didn't create the low cost feeders in the US but they have to compete with them

AC didn't put all the US carriers through CH 11 which is far harsher on employees than CCAA. But they have to compete with them.

AC didn't create WJ but .............

AC isn't creating a WJ regional but...........

Compete or die. That is our choice. Harsh I know.

In that light I don't think the leaderships intention at ACPA toward Jazz was malice when they allowed Sky.

It was acceptance of reality.

[Lost in Saigon]

I was told by a manager that ALL the Embraers and ALL the Airbus A320/321's will be gone soon. Right out of the Air Canada system. They will be replaced with either B737-700's or Airbus A320 "Enhanced".

The A319's will go to the new Low Cost Carrier in a high density all economy configuration (approx 140 seats) because no other carrier wants them. Some B767's will also go to LCC in the present J/Y configuration and then will probably be converted to high density seating as well.

[c170b53]

Don't believe that things always work out for the best

I've edited this post, removed my post and I apologize for my negative comment. Sorry but its just to easy to be negative here at big red.

[Fanblade]

Don't believe that things always work out for the best

I've edited this post, removed my post and I apologize for my negative comment. Sorry but its just to easy to be negative here at big red.

C170,

I didn't understand it.

It is easy to be negative right now. It is a CR and KH hallmark. Fear. And lots of it. Makes people behave irrationally. Do things they normally wouldn't. In this case agree to things they normally wouldn't.

Lost,

Middle management is a vital component of fear building and maintenance. Trust me unless they are at the executive level they are just preaching from the play book they have been given. A play book that has been rapidly changing. I wonder if they have been doing their amendments?

Think of it a different way. A 1000 pilot jobs translates into about 8-9000 total AC jobs. Name an arbitrator ever that has taken 8-9000 jobs and just transferred them to someone else? It won't happen. The corporation needs to show minimal impact on current (loss through attrition is acceptable) employees, to get the arbitrator to buy in to their restructuring plan. We wont see an arbitrator saying.......you know what? I'm giving your job away to Joe Blow over there.

[Localizer]

The vultures are circling at the prospect of an arbitrator gutting ACPA's scope language.

I would like clarification as to who the "vultures" are?

[accumulous]

Don't believe that things always work out for the best

I've edited this post, removed my post and I apologize for my negative comment. Sorry but its just to easy to be negative here at big red.

C170,

I didn't understand it.

It is easy to be negative right now. It is a CR and KH hallmark. Fear. And lots of it. Makes people behave irrationally. Do things they normally wouldn't. In this case agree to things they normally wouldn't.

Lost,

Middle management is a vital component of fear building and maintenance. Trust me unless they are at the executive level they are just preaching from the play book they have been given. A play book that has been rapidly changing. I wonder if they have been doing their amendments?

Think of it a different way. A 1000 pilot jobs translates into about 8-9000 total AC jobs. Name an arbitrator ever that has taken 8-9000 jobs and just transferred them to someone else? It won't happen. The corporation needs to show minimal impact on current (loss through attrition is acceptable) employees, to get the arbitrator to buy in to their restructuring plan. We wont see an arbitrator saying.......you know what? I'm giving your job away to Joe Blow over there.

The Arbitrator will give it to Joe Blow if he has a convincing argument from CR that Joe Blow will get it anyway by accepting ACPA's offer, depending on what that is. Two offers, High Noon. Take a wild guess who's holding the Buntline Special.

So far we got the ball rolling by taking out Ads in every newspaper in the country fingering CR. Did taking out coast to coast Ads mentioning the CEO drive the last spike thru any offer that’s previously been on the table? We always seem to get ourselves into the quicksand and we all know what happens if you try thrashing around in quicksand. It just gets a whole bunch quicker.

In equestrian terms it’s a bit like whipping the living daylights out of your horse before you even get on it. Two horseshoes to the head is probably best symbolized by a hat lying at the bottom of the Ad with nothing in it. Hi, we’re here for the Arbitration. By the way we just hard-copied 30 million customers about you in the Press. How are we doing so far.

We better come up with something better than that or,

"A Message from the Flight Deck" will become something like,

"A Message from Jetstar - We Just Got Bigger"

[Fanblade]

Think of it a different way. A 1000 pilot jobs translates into about 8-9000 total AC jobs. Name an arbitrator ever that has taken 8-9000 jobs and just transferred them to someone else? It won't happen. The corporation needs to show minimal impact on current (loss through attrition is acceptable) employees, to get the arbitrator to buy in to their restructuring plan. We wont see an arbitrator saying.......you know what? I'm giving your job away to Joe Blow over there.

The Arbitrator will give it to Joe Blow if he has a convincing argument from CR that Joe Blow will get it anyway by accepting ACPA's offer, depending on what that is. Two offers, High Noon. Take a wild guess who's holding the Buntline Special.

Name one. Yes I understand what FOS is. Yes I understand it is weighted in favor of the corporation.

I also understand it is rare for an arbitrator to not impose a previous agree to TA. In respect to this arbitration as it is FOS. Likely the closest to TA1.

By agreeing to it. It is a statement by AC that it meets their needs. The same applies to us whether we like it or not. I think the regional landscape has changed since last year and as a result AC would like further movement on scope. When you want 15 more seats. You ask for 30. Right. Since this is final selection they have a shot.

FWIW. TA1 would also have seen more 705's at Jazz and more ASM's 75 seats and below.

If you would like some insight into failed TA's and jurisprudence read the CUPE arbitration. It is extremely rare for a failed TA not to be imposed if the situation ends in binding arbitration.

[accumulous]

That almost sounds like negotiation. AC probably already pulled the FOS trigger. The bullet's just not here yet.

[bearinmind]

We are mixing 2 situations and evaluating them the same. They are both a kick in the junk so its easy to think they are the same.

Moodys report, is saying that we are headed for CCAA. They are probably right. Everything that happens after CCAA is not going to happen with an arbitrator, its going to happen behind closed doors and will emerge after the filing. The new investors will make all the decisions on Scope, CPA and who gets what pieces of the pie. The ones with the most money will get the best parts.

Arbitrator report. They have language that all but prevents the arbitrator in ruling against the company. They have to make a decision that is fair but also that will leave the company sustainable. The arbitrator has to then prove that the pilot plan is sustainable long term and they probably cant do that easily. Its easier just to select the company plan.

The moodys report is the trump card. We are valuation is going down and we are going to have a hard time getting loans and the banks are going to start calling our loans. If we have a small cash crunch we are done. Its just a matter of time.

Post CCAA, Jazz is a successfull regional, they have 1500 pilots (guessing) and they make money (how they do it is arguable, lets move on) They are geared to take this business and its seamless and they have cash, expect them to do what they are doing, but more of it.

Sky Regional, has 100 (no idea realy but probably not more than 100) pilots but an OC for a seasonal operation and all the know how to start up right away. They have trained and experienced crews, they will be the new AC vacations.

GGN will also increase their flying. They are very successfull at can/us domestic operation, have a dash 8 I think and operate jets. They also have money with their parent company.

I just thank the man above that the pensions are protected in Canada.

[Fanblade]

Bearinmind,

AC does not have a near term solvency issue barring an unexpected event (911/Sars) The credit agencies are concerned with labor. Advanced bookings affecting the cash position. Then affecting covenants. Standard and poors puts the risk number around 1.5 B. They have not down graded yet. They put AC on watch. With good reason don't you think? Yes a wildcat could kill the place. But this isn't much different than the norm. Airlines only carry a month or two of liquidity most of which is covered by covenants. Capital expenditures are low until the arrival of the 787.

Medium term the story is different. Without change AC will not weather the next down turn. Will not attract financing for the 787 and so on. No 787? Bye bye. It is our future.

So yes. This is why the government intervention. To prevent the medium term course we are on. Yes the corporation will get what it needs. Why because we won't/can't do it ourselves. Because failure of AC is bad public policy. Because the tax payer ain't going to pay. Because Canadian CCAA laws won't allow AC to do what it needs to do.

However it won't be worse than already tabled.

As fir pension. AC will not pay your pension deficit. They have said as much. We figure it out or it will be done for us in 2014. They don't need CCAA to do it. Unless you are out of here before the change happens? You will eat some of the deficit. The 15% solvency deficit spread only over active employees is closer to 30%`

[altiplano]

Has the company or ACPA submitted a proposal for the arbitration yet?

If so, what are the key points?

Who is/are the arbitrator(s)?

[hithere]

Fanblade,
Who the hell are you? I presumed you were in the ACPA MEC until in a previous post you mentioned that you are new to AC and living with AC's pathetic reserve rules. How does a relatively new hire have such a privileged insight to the ACPA's and management's proposals?0Me I'm just a lowly Jazz pilot but you seem to have extensive knowledge of AC's and ACPA's FOS proposal.