Improper Clearance

[Rookie50]

This is a new one for me. Flew the other night in the Toronto area; just inside the outermost class C ring; way over in the west. Intially requested and got VFR FF for the short hop and 4500', no worries. Then later was given this instruction, "ABC, descend to 2500' for destination (not downtown; way over in the west) What?? Class C limits in this area are either abv 3500 or 4500' depending on exactly where you are. So this guy -- who (over the years) is one sector controller out of all of them not partcularly nice to VFR traffic; regardless of their apparent airmanship ---- appears to me to be giving a clearance below the limits of his airspace ; and below the area MEA; BTW! I have 2 choices -- I co-operate and slowly descend; and deal with it on the ground; or I tell him politely; "get lost, not your airspace" cancell FF; and continue on my merry way. I value traffic advisories in TO airspace; so I slowly descend----to the MEA and no further. At that point handed off to TWR and approach and landing. Can he do what he did? What would you do? Remember this is at night; single engine. Personally I don't value 2500' at night over unlit terrain if I don't have to.

[skypirate88]

Haha...I am pretty sure I have dealt with the same fella. I certainly agree with you, and would normally do just what you did by beginning a very shallow descent (something around 100 fpm). There didn't ever seem to be any trouble with that. I have also used your second option on those extra grumpy days. I would just simply cancel FF and continue on my way under his airspace.
The impression I get from that guy is that he's just trying to get you out of his airspace so he doesn't have to put up with you. On the whole, the Toronto TCA guys are usually a pleasure to deal with.

[Liquid Charlie]

Interesting stuff but you should get the "other side's" view as well -- if you are positively controlled and under radar surveillance atc can provided terrain and obstruction avoidance at a lower altitude than what is published on your charts. Next time don't be shy just ask him if he is providing that service --

[HeadingAltitudeSpeed]

While not familiar with the airspace there I would have to say the short answer is yes he can. Assuming that you are within controlled airspace (class E) and requested FF (ATC services) then he is doing what you asked for. If you are unhappy with the clearance then you need to inform the controller that you are unable to comply due to safety (just as if he had told you to climb to an altitude that would put you in cloud). Alternate instruction would have been issued, or you would have been told to remain clear of class C airspace and continue of your merry way without FF service.

Interesting stuff but you should get the "other side's" view as well -- if you are positively controlled and under radar surveillance atc can provided terrain and obstruction avoidance at a lower altitude than what is published on your charts. Next time don't be shy just ask him if he is providing that service --

Not quite, terrain and obstruction are your responsibility when VFR. MEA's are IFR numbers, not VFR.

I'm not sure about the wisdom of complying with instructions purposefully slowly. When issued an altitude, when accepted you are expected to make immediate change to the new altitude consistent with the operating characteristics of your aircraft. extremely shallow descents can cause problems when we expect you to make a normal descent and suddenly find you at an altitude that is not where we expect you.

[flyinthebug]

Rookie50... Forgive me for saying this, but where is your "jam"? You were given a clearance that was obviously in violation of the airspace and yet you complied but with a "slow descent"?? Why on earth would you comply when you knew it was in direct violation of the airspace you were entering?

This reminds me sooooo much of the 747 crash that TCA uses in their CRM courses. The Capt called for a heading change and a descent below published MDA. The Co-pilot recognizes the mistake immediately but stays quiet about it for over 5 minutes. When he finally does mention the mistake to the Captain, the Captain turns to the FE and tells a joke about co-pilots and ducks. The co-pilot then does not open his mouth again, until 15 seconds before they CFIT into the side of a mountain!

For gods sake man, speak up! If you are given an improper clearance of ANY nature, whether YOU feel its a serious mistake or not, you must speak up! One of the posters suggested you need not be shy, and id suggest he is 100% correct! You are not going to hurt anyones feelings by confirming with the controller what he wants you to do. He may even appreciate that you pointed out HIS mistake. He may infact get pissy with you, but if he was wrong thats his problem!! The regs are there for a reason...to be followed to the letter. If you find yourself in this situation again, please, speak up and be heard and tell them something is not right here! It may just save your life one day.

Fly safe and smart all!

[Rookie50]

A couple of clarifications: First; It was good VMC and I am very familiar with the terrain. If I wasn't; I would have filed IFR; as is my policy at night in unfamiliar areas. Second; its class E below the class C; and the floor was above 4500 asl for the class C in that area. I chose to descend at 300 ft / min to the MEA; (3200) at which moment I would have requested to hold at the MEA; however he handed me off to tower at that moment. I would have requested a gradual descent in perhaps another 10 or miles on my own accord anyway. The point is; to have someone descend 2000 feet below their Class C at night; with virtually non- existant other traffic; is ridiculous and compromises safety, and could be a serious issue to a pilot not familiar with the terrain. As stated; I was VFR so although he commanded a descent below the MEA; It's my terrain avoidance responsibility. This particular controller regularly forces all VFR traffic lower than other controllers. On my outbound earlier (the same day; day vmc; with 5 times the traffic; a different guy gave me 3000' then 3500' --- no problem!) Most Toronto sector controllers are fantastic with their service of VFR or IFR; this one needs correction. Next time if their is one; I would cancell FF and tell him "no thank you". Respectfully; its no wonder so many VFR folks (around here) avoid FF; which raises midair risk for all IMO.

[Rookie50]

Ps; in this airspace contact is not required in the class E, So in my case it would have been only required above 4500'.

[Rookie50]

And yes; perhaps I am too polite. A habit I need to lose in some situations. Another lesson learned.

[Beefitarian]

And yes; perhaps I am too polite. A habit I need to lose in some situations. Another lesson learned.

Being more assertive might be good but please stay polite. There is not enough polite going around these days. We need more consideration not less.

Seems like the whole reason you're upset is the controller was not being considerate towards your preference. Maybe if you had explained what you wanted to do he could have realized why. I suspect he did it either out of habit or because it made the most sense to him to get you to decend there. He might have even thought he was doing you a favour of some kind.

[Rookie50]

And yes; perhaps I am too polite. A habit I need to lose in some situations. Another lesson learned.

Being more assertive might be good but please stay polite. There is not enough polite going around these days. We need more consideration not less.

Seems like the whole reason you're upset is the controller was not being considerate towards your preference. Maybe if you had explained what you wanted to do he could have realized why. I suspect he did it either out of habit or because it made the most sense to him to get you to decend there. He might have even thought he was doing you a favour of some kind.

No; those who have flown in the TO west sector would recognize this guy. He is highly experienced but a real hard case -- to be polite. Just MO.

[Beefitarian]

Well I really appreciate polite and hope you can keep it up.

[Sidebar]

... later was given this instruction, "ABC, descend to 2500' for destination So this guy -- appears to me to be giving a clearance below the limits of his airspace

Read the AIM. There is a difference between clearances and instructions.

[BEFAN5]

Call them up after you land. It is a good way to learn about how they work, and better yet, it may make them aware of something that is happening and isn't.

[Liquid Charlie]

Read the AIM. There is a difference between clearances and instructions.

With some reflection and hindsight and having jumped in with my brain in neutral along with a gray moment or two -- exactly !