F-35 looking more like white elephant

[Rockie]

The conservatives are digging themselves even deeper. Now they're saying the $10B difference in price tag was known all along but not included since the extra money is fixed costs like pilot salaries and fuel. They want us to believe that extra money isn't an acquisition cost since it won't be going to the company that builds the plane.

"But the $10 billion is money that we're paying right now. That is, money that goes to pay the pilots of the CF-18 program and fuel, oil, upkeep of the existing fleet."

Read more: http://www.canada.com/news/Peter+MacKay ... z1rY2DHhQW

[Old Dog Flying]

"But the $10 billion is money that we're paying right now. That is, money that goes to pay the pilots of the CF-18 program and fuel, oil, upkeep of the existing fleet."

How in hell can this be part of the acquisition cost???? Do we stop having an air force until we get the F-35 on line?

I had a friend who thought that his aircraft was worth XXXXXXX dollars because he added all of the costs of fuel, maintenance and insurance along with parking fees and figured all of that into the current value of the airrcraft...he finally gave it away for pennies on the dollar.

[Beefitarian]

Do we stop having an air force until we get the F-35 on line?

I don't know if we'll have one then. 65 planes? Yes, I realize we probably can't afford that many but we seem to be getting dreadfully close to the point of, "why bother?"

We probably had more P-51s and many people probably think, "P-51s? Canada didn't use P-51s."

Again I know we don't have the money but think we should have 200 planes defending the boarders during peace times.

Sorry, I'll let the grown ups talk.

[frosti]

The conservatives are digging themselves even deeper.

Nope, just typical media hysteria in Ottawa. They keep swinging and missing and PM Harper continues to ignore them and their delusions of self importance.

[Rockie]

The conservatives are digging themselves even deeper.

Nope, just typical media hysteria in Ottawa.

I guess you didn't read the article. The Auditor General says the planes are going to cost $10 billion more than the government has maintained confirming what the Americans themselves are saying and what the PBO said over a year ago. That's the cost to receive the planes from the manufacturer.

Now the defense minister is saying he knew that all along and it's actually a quirk of accounting because the $10 billion is pilot costs and fuel. He's directly contradicting what the AG, PBO and Americans have said. Read the article and tell us again how Peter Mackay's comments can be construed as media hysteria.

Are you saying the auditor general was wrong and the planes aren't going to cost what he said?

[frosti]

The planes will cost what we pay for them...in 2016. The report estimated the program over 36 years @ $25b vs. the DND's estimate of $15b over 20 years. So in actuality, the AG report is CHEAPER than the DND estimate.

[Rockie]

The planes will cost what we pay for them...in 2016. The report estimated the program over 36 years @ $25b vs. the DND's estimate of $15b over 20 years. So in actuality, the AG report is CHEAPER than the DND estimate.

Now that's the most creative interpretation of this fiasco I've heard yet.

[Lost Lake]

There are 2 problems with the program. Firstly, I don't ever recall Canada having to use an arcraft (piston or jet) to defend it's country. I am talking about an actual armed interception. Why don't we scrap fighters and purchase more Surveillance and SAR aircraft to patrol our borders and remote regions.

The second problem, and slightly off topic but still relevant is the archaic, useless, anti-progressive model of parliament and politicans. In the beginning, the only way all people could be represented was by elected locals travelling long distances over weeks in some cases to meet with others in Ottawa.

It is now the 21st century! We have put people on the moon. We have computers, and we have instant communications via the internet. Why not disband parliament and run the country based on a business model. Hire the best people in all areas of expertise, pay them well and give bonuses to those who succeed in meeting expectations. Fire those that don't. The board of directors (the general population) would vote on major issues once a month on line. Incorporate an SMS approach to running it. Ensure total transparancy!

Anyone interested in helping form a new party whose sole goal is to dissolve parliament and start a new management organization based on a fair and practical business model?

Flame away!

[Expat]

The point is, we are paying development costs and capabilities associated with stealth paint, VTOL, and STOL, all thing we do not need, but have been sucked into...
No need for a PHD to comprehend that.

Actually, a gravel kit would be more usefull.

[Siddley Hawker]

A couple of questions and observations.

Strictly for my own education, what was the original estimates of the F-18's and how does it compare with the actual cost over the life of the aircraft? The F-35 has to be compared to something, what better something than the weapons system it is to replace? The media have latched onto a $BFN. Can anyone be bothered to take the effort to compare the $BFN for the F-35 to what was unboubtedly a $BFN that was spent on the F-18 back in the day?

As a purely personal observation, with all else being equal, the F-35 would not be my first choice as a front line fighter because there's a world of difference between losing an engine and losing the engine. Furthermore, I think McKay's ass should be grass since this has been his baby from the get go. The $10B - that's a pretty $BFN by the way - was part of the operating cost that was not included in the published estimates? Give me a break. I ran a corporate flight department for 15 years and if I had made that kind of screw-up the very next visitor to my boss' office would have commented on his new bookends and how much they resembled Siddley Hawker's testicles.

A few months ago Michael Ferguson was being excoriated by the Dippers, the Liberals and the press because he wasn't bilingual. Now they are lining up three deep to kiss his ass. In addition to that there is the added spectacle of Interim Bob standing on his hind legs and calling all and sundry incompetent. I presume he's forgotten who bought submersibles that are unable to submerge. Irony ain't his long suit.

[Moose47]

"Furthermore, I think McKay's ass should be grass since this has been his baby from the get go. "

The get go? By that you mean from the very beginning? Gee Sid, I was not aware that Peter McKay was in the Liberal party at the time.

Cheers...Chris

[Expat]

Frosti,

The Japanese and South Koreans are paying next to nothing for their planes, as they have to spend the trillions of dollars they are sitting on. They also have to protect their biggest market from lawsuits, and be nice to Washington. They will really never use these planes to their full potential. They will buy F-35s and Boeing planes, to appease the US.
Harper, on the other hand, especially after the Keystone slap in the face, has all to gain, by playing cool, and by re-tendering. He has nothing to lose, save a few millions. We should not care, as this is our sovereignty we are talking about. As a military, you should understand.
We are the second largest country in the world, and we should be proud of our leaders when they make decisions that are for our good, and not merely to be a good neighbour.
Let us hope he sees the light.

[azimuthaviation]

Let us hope he sees the light

Yeah I wouldnt count on it. Ten years ago, Canadian flags were still at half mast after the 9/11 attacks, an American pilot had recently killed four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan where Canada was the third largest cointributor of ground forces, Canada gave all kinds of support to New York after the attacks, more than any other nation, Canadians treated the passengers of flights diverted to Canada like their own family, opening their own homes. Meanwhile the USA continued to snub Canada, their press, their president, the national anthem was booed in NHL games as the flag was raised -while Canadians were mourning the four dead killed by the USAF, and the softwood lumber dispute was leaving families and businesses in turmoil in BC because of US protectionism in defiance of NAFTA. And that was during the era of the anti-US PM. With a PM who seems to believe in American Manifest destiny and Evangelical Zionism, I am not surprised to see whose interestes he puts first. And so far he hasnt proved me wrong.

[2R]

The truth is out:A simple mistake caused by our trilingual forces.
The nuef sobbered up for Easter,and said that he meant 10 airplanes for 65 billion, not 10 billion for 65 planes as reported in the media.
A mistake anyone could make if drinking that screech stuff.The nuef was last seen heading east on a dorrie with a large can of screech
Three of the planes will be on wheel skiis like a converted Sea Dart to protect the Artic from invading hoardes

If you do not know who the nuef is please excuse yourself from this rant

[Lost Lake]

Please be careful when to refering to Nuef's (note Capital N). While I left there many moons ago. I am still a proud Nuef!!

[2R]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDQANmQO2g0

Some people may never smoke weed with willie again,but i will never drink screech again.

"Eh Boy "spoken by an eastcoaster may sound like " i'll buy" to the ears of a hungry airplane salesman.Especially if they are sharing a glass or two of that devils piss.You need to gargle with gasoline to get the taste of that homemade stuff out of your teeth

[Moose47]

Lost Lake said - "There are 2 problems with the program. Firstly, I don't ever recall Canada having to use an arcraft (piston or jet) to defend it's country. I am talking about an actual armed interception."

Let me be the one to enlighten you me trout.

Canadian CF-101 Voodoos that stood 5 minute QRA carried a pair of Hughes AIM-4D Falcon air-to-air missles. We conducted all Cold Shaft ops with live weapons. At one time they carried two nuclear-tipped Genie missles along with the Falcons. Once Comrade Trudeau took the nukes away from the Canadian military in Canada and Germany the Voodoos relied solely on the Falcons.

You would be mistaken in you thoughts that the Hornets are not carrying weapons when they carry out Bear intercepts.

Just slightly going off topic, how many of you out there are aware that the U.S.A.F. was the first line of defence from Baffin Island to Newfoundland from 1952 to 1966. The U.S.A.F. maintained fighter interceptor squadrons at Goose Air Base (Goose Bay, Labrador) and Harmon Air Base (Stephenville), Newfoundland. They also built radar and gap filler stations along the Labrador coast and in Newfoundland. The U. S. Navy flew radar picket from Argentia, Newfoundland for many years.

Cheers...Chris

[Lost Lake]

Moose, I'm not saying we didn/don't carry live ammmo, just that we've never used them. Now that it's 2012, and big brother is still militarily paranoid, I just think purchasing a type of aircraft that has actually never seen combat in this country is a total waste of money. I think this is as much a political, "hey we'll drop this shit pile of money on buying your planes" is just ass kissing to the Americans so we can continue free trade.

I know some will say that if and when we do need them, it will be too late. Somehow, I don't think 30 or 50 or 100 fighters is going to defend our borders. Hell why would we want to fight other countries when we won't even stand up and fight beaurocratic bullshit in our country. We've already been taken over by hostiles (political eopportunists) and we haven't even fired a shot!!

[Beefitarian]

Carefull Lost, I agree 65 planes is not nearly enough already. We don't want to have to defend the south border.

[Siddley Hawker]

The get go? By that you mean from the very beginning? Gee Sid, I was not aware that Peter McKay was in the Liberal party at the time.

Moose after what, 4 years as Minister of Defence? he owns that portfolio and all the smelly stuff that came with it. Don't get me wrong, I like McKay, he was instrumental in uniting the right in this country, but he's in a hole and all I see him doing is continuing to dig. What amazes me is that a group that put together the shipbuilding contracts that were awarded recently could allow an aircraft procurement proposal to go from complicated to FUBAR.

[trampbike]

So far, we received almost double what we invested in the JSF program since 1997 in industrial benefits.

Which has very little to do with whether we actually buy the aircraft or not. 

100% right, and I never implied otherwise.

I simply was responding to that:

Well you can't very well cut what you've already spent now can you.

At least somebody is putting the brakes on the program.

I'm still curious as to whom is actually putting the brakes?

[frosti]

I'm still curious as to whom is actually putting the brakes?

The media corps in Ottawa think they are in control, but in actuality your average Canadian doesn't care about this program, otherwise it would be a big enough issue NOT to give Harper a majority. I was REALLY surprised the Conservatives won the election so convincingly because the government hasn't done a good enough job selling the F35. The F35 program is still going strong and testing is progressing positively with issues being identified early in the program, like they should. We don't want another fiasco where they had to install fences on the LEX due to VSTAB cracks on the CF-18s.

[Rockie]

The media corps in Ottawa think they are in control, but in actuality your average Canadian doesn't care about this program, otherwise it would be a big enough issue NOT to give Harper a majority.

You really need to get over your hatred of the media because they only report the news, they don't make it. The liberals were decimated for something far less than this F35 fiasco, but they also had timing against them since they were at the end of their third mandate and people were tired of them.

Don't kid yourself, the conservatives won the election ONLY because the opposition is in total disarray and they know it. It's why they governed like a majority when they were a minority. It was not because Canadians don't care about this issue and the many others the conservatives are incompetently botching. Their day will come, but unfortunately it won't be until the liberals and NDP get over themselves and join forces like the reform and PC's did.

[Moose47]

Rockie said "The liberals were decimated for something far less than this F35 fiasco,"

Losing 500 million dollars in cancellation fees for the EH-101's we badly needed, Shawinigate, AdScam, the Long Gun Registry and Jane Stewart's HRDC 'Billion Dollar Boondoggle'. You're so right Rockie, they were pale in comparison to the F-35 controversy.

Cheers...Chris

[Moose47]

Rockie said "You really need to get over your hatred of the media because they only report the news, they don't make it"

Oh really?

http://www.globalissues.org/article/532 ... n#FakeNews

Cheers...Chris