X/Wind corrections.

[Plim Sole]

It might be the less favored method but so what?
If someone wants to fly an approach cross controlled that's fine.

I'm not going to get in an argument about it. I have an opinion and it's obviously different to yours.

[YYZSaabGuy]

It might be the less favored method but so what?
If someone wants to fly an approach cross controlled that's fine.

I'm not going to get in an argument about it. I have an opinion and it's obviously different to yours.

Gotta agree with Plim Sole here - lots of opinions on this thread, not too many facts. If somebody can provide data from TC, the FAA, the TSB, the NTSB, COPA, AOPA, Bob Hoover, or anybody else that links a sideslipped final approach to a higher accident rate than a crabbed final, then I'm happy to listen. Until then, it's a matter of opinion. Labelling a technique as "unorthodox" doesn't make it unsafe. Since I've brought up his name, Bob Hoover's flight show routines were unorthodox. I don't think any of us would argue that they were unsafe.

[Rockie]

Labelling a technique as "unorthodox" doesn't make it unsafe.

Nobody said it was unsafe, unless doing so compromises your aircraft control and guidance during an ILS for instance. If you want to fly your entire flight cross controlled you go right ahead, but one would have to ask why?

Sideslipping an aircraft all the way down on final to compensate for a crosswind is neither necessary or conventional as I said. It also is not recommended in transport category aircraft...for a reason.

But you go right ahead and fly whatever it is you fly any way you want.

[Cat Driver]

It might be the less favored method but so what?
If someone wants to fly an approach cross controlled that's fine.

I'm not going to get in an argument about it. I have an opinion and it's obviously different to yours.

Of course we all are entitled to our opinions there is nothing wrong with that.

However from my personal perspective and my past involvement with pilot hiring over the decades if a job candidate for say a Navajo pilot were to use the crossed control side slipping method of tracking final to a runway in a x/wind I would not go any further in my decision as to said candidate's suitability for the job. I would not hire him/her.

Now we both understand our positions on this subject we obviously have different standards with regard to aircraft handling skills.....no problem.

Labelling a technique as "unorthodox" doesn't make it unsafe. Since I've brought up his name, Bob Hoover's flight show routines were unorthodox. I don't think any of us would argue that they were unsafe.

I obviously can not speak for Bob Hoover but seeing as you bring up the flight show business I can use that sector of aviation as a basis of forming my personal opinion on this subject because I held an unrestricted airdisplay authority in Europe under JAA rules and flew as an airdisplay pilot all over Europe for eight years......

.....win lose or draw I feel that gives me some insight into that sector of airplane handling skills.

[YYZSaabGuy]

It might be the less favored method but so what?
If someone wants to fly an approach cross controlled that's fine.

I'm not going to get in an argument about it. I have an opinion and it's obviously different to yours.

Of course we all are entitled to our opinions there is nothing wrong with that.

However from my personal perspective and my past involvement with pilot hiring over the decades if a job candidate for say a Navajo pilot were to use the crossed control side slipping method of tracking final to a runway in a x/wind I would not go any further in my decision as to said candidate's suitability for the job. I would not hire him/her.

Now we both understand our positions on this subject we obviously have different standards with regard to aircraft handling skills.....no problem.

Labelling a technique as "unorthodox" doesn't make it unsafe. Since I've brought up his name, Bob Hoover's flight show routines were unorthodox. I don't think any of us would argue that they were unsafe.

I obviously can not speak for Bob Hoover but seeing as you bring up the flight show business I can use that sector of aviation as a basis of forming my personal opinion on this subject because I held an unrestricted airdisplay authority in Europe under JAA rules and flew as an airdisplay pilot all over Europe for eight years......

.....win lose or draw I feel that gives me some insight into that sector of airplane handling skills.

Cat, no argument, it absolutely does. I am simply trying to find out why cross-controlled final is unacceptable. If it's not a safety issue, what is the problem? Again, if "unorthodox" was not intended to imply "unsafe", as Rockie pointed out above, then could you please explain why you're so dead-set against this handling method? Thanks.

[Plim Sole]

Now we both understand our positions on this subject we obviously have different standards with regard to aircraft handling skills.....no problem.

Nice and subtle little dig there Cat

Everyone's correct, you're just more correct than everyone!

[Cat Driver]

Hi, YYZSaabGuy no problem....

.....one of my reasons for being against pilots using the crossed control method of X/wind correcting is passenger comfort.....passengers do not like the forces that crossed controls produce and in the context of tracking the center line of the runway on final the crabbing correction method is more passenger friendly......of course I have other reasons but for the purpose of this discussion of hiring a new pilot there is one of my personal issues I use in the hiring process..

By the way I just remembered an airplane I used to fly that you could fly the approach, flare hold off, touch down and runway roll out in the fully crabbed method.

It was a DC3 with cross wind landing gear on it.....never ever seen one before or after but it sure was weird zinging down the runway with the nose pointed about thirty degrees different from the runway center line.

Keir Air Transport in Edmonton bought it in around 1969 as I recall and had the cross wind gear removed and conventional gear reinstalled and they gained about 1800 extra pounds of payload.

[LousyFisherman]

As the pilot who mentioned and uses the long slip method I figure it's time to contribute. Since there have been no facts given as to why to crab and kick, I will supply some about why to slip. All of them relate to the low skills of many pilots including myself.

First, having had a fairly long e-acquaintance with Cat/. I assume he is being facetious and trying to stir the pot. I got to admit he got a rise out me when I first read his initial post but I'm middle aged now so I relaxed

Second we are not talking about CPL's, we are not talking about transport planes we are talking about low time amateurs. The method was mentioned to provide an easy technique for inexperienced pilots to gain confidence and skill in crosswinds

One of the biggest complaints on this board is that green PPL's cannot handle crosswinds. This is because they are being asked to perform a relatively complex manuvere at the most critical stage of flight.

Most PPLs are taught slips at 2000ft AGL and the next time they are asked to use them is to transition from the crab to the slip at 10 or 20ft AGL. Of course they are no good.

One of the big problems of green PPLs is trying to get a correct stabilized approach. If I am crabbing and low, add power, now I am off the centerline. I have 2 things to worry about, am I still low, how do I get back to the centerline. Same thing if I'm high, reduce power, get blown off the centerline. Should they have the skill to prevent this, of course, but it takes time to develop it.

Dealing with gusts is much easier in the slip.

Last and most important is PDM. A pilot can fly to the limits of his ability but never exceed them. I regularly land with gusting xwinds exceeding 25 knots. I do not have the ability to do that using the crab and kick method So should I just not go flying anytime the xwinds exceed my ability to crab and kick?

I am an amateur with under 200 hours who does fly near enough.
I AM NOT A VERY GOOD PILOT!

One of my trips into a mountain strip(Red Deer Forestry) I had a gusty crosswind I estimated 15-20 knots. As I dropped below the treelin (50 feet give or take) I hit a shear which removed 20 feet while at the same time the crosswind reduced to maybe 5 knots. It was trivial, add power, reduce the slip, land the plane. If I was in a crab, I would have added power and there would have been a very good chance of piling the aircraft into the trees.
Let me repeat I AM NOT A VERY GOOD PILOT!

Yet, I find crosswinds are trivial, I regular practice the falling leaf, I regularly practice 70 degree steep turns, I can touch and go without dropping the nose wheel, I am currently trying to do touch and goes without touching one main. I do not see the fuss over learning to fly a taildragger, the only issue I had with a Citabria was it was much more sensitive to rudder inputs. I am close to my current limits and I will not push harder until I get some acrobatic training. For which I have to go to the Okanagan, at which time I am planning to do the training before or after getting my float ticket.

Unfortunately, life gets in the way. So if anyone wants to help learn/improve my crab and kick method, please drop $100K in my bank account and find me a professional manager for my business

And now to deal with why the crab and kick is preferred.
Should a CPL be able to do it as a requirement. Of course. No argument. QED

You can land in higher speed crosswinds. Possibly, please see skill level and PDM above.

It makes passengers uncomfortable.
Take another look at the video of the Lufthansa landing, Do you think those passengers felt safe and comfortable? Do you think that pilot wished he had transitioned a little earlier. AND HE IS A MUCH BETTER PILOT THAN ME!

Since I want to fly floats I watch them all the time. Funny, watching float planes land on a river with a moderate crosswind every single one of them exited out of the crab above the treeline. Gee, I wonder why.

And finally, suppose we are flying together to one of my mountain strips in "fancy winds". Which would make you comfortable? Watching me make numerous corrections, over-corrections, sliding off the centerline, high approach, low approach, the plane all over the sky with me generally falling behind the plane and getting flustered. Or, realizing that though it is not the way you would do it, I am on the centerline, making tiny control movements, comfortable relaxed, whistling:
"I'se the bye who builds the boats, I'se the bye who sails 'em, I'se the bye who BRINGS IT HOME to 'Liza"

Remember, a good landing is one everyone walks away from. A great landing is one where the plane can fly again.

Just my 2 cents, soon to be a nickel in Canada.
LF

[Plim Sole]

Excellent post! I think you are doing yourself a disservice... You sound a much better pilot than you claim!

[Liquid Charlie]

The only way you can exceed the "demonstrated" xwind limit on any airplane is with crab and kicking straight but needs to be done at the very last second or else you will drift - also as mentioned before -- you can't visually line up on the centre line but need to consider your airplane and compensate upwind to put the main gear in that space once you remove the crab ---- also there are a/c types out there that you will drag a wing tip if you sideslip - at the end of the day it's all about your own comfort zone and how you program your muscle memory --

PS -- training wheel or tail dragger -- no difference -

[Cat Driver]

Good morning LousyFisherman your Newfie language has captivated me and anyone who can use Newfanize can't be all wrong...

So I am going to do something nice for you.

The use of side slipping for track control over the ground should be properly taught to a new pilot candidate at the very beginning of her / his flying lessons..just after attitudes and movements.

The student should be able to change from crab to slip to crab effortlessly before going into the circuit.

The Flight Instructors Guide so loved by most instructors clearly states the importance of learning how to perform any exercise that will be required of the pilot all through their flying career......being able to use the crab method of tracking down the final approach and skillfully transitioning to the wing down crossed control drift correction in the last stage of the landing is covered in """ The Law of Primacy """.

Sooooo, if you ever come to Pitt Meadows and I am around I will " GIVE " you one hour of my time dedicated to the skills of X/wind corrections.....when I am through you will never again be in doubt of how to best control an airplane in X/winds.

. .....Cat Driver.

[Liquid Charlie]

Sooooo, if you ever come to Pitt Meadows

I hear rumors that there is a book signing going on there on the 22nd -- is that true ??

[DanWEC]

I am a 250 hr guy myself- and I have to admit I was never taught the crab method until I requested it after my PPL, around 80 hours. (Though I did have good training on tracking straight over the ground during slips and crabs)
By virtue of the fact that I learned ab initio doing the slip approach only, I originally felt much more comfortable doing it. Now I often switch it up though- when I'm flying solo I'll decide before the approach which one I feel like doing, just for kicks.
I can't lend much input as to which is "better", however isn't it systemically simpler to maintain the same slipping approach down to TD instead of dramatically changing the approach right above flare? Though if there is a substantial x-wind, you will (should!) be dancing a bit and flying the plane right down to pavement anyways regardless.
Granted, any pilot should be able to do both landing style with equal ease, but there are obviously dis/advantages to both styles.
In a slip your airspeed can misread. I've found on a light single with static ports on the left side that it can read 5kt or more high if slipping to the left, 5kt low if to the right. Fairly easy to compensate for that.
In slip you are also limited to the max demonstrated x-wind (that was mentioned already) when you run out of rudder. On a long approach one leg can get a bit tired... and of course you have to be consistant with the input or you're going to be yawing a bit as you correct, which, as Cat said, isn't great for your pax.

[YYZSaabGuy]

.....one of my reasons for being against pilots using the crossed control method of X/wind correcting is passenger comfort.....passengers do not like the forces that crossed controls produce and in the context of tracking the center line of the runway on final the crabbing correction method is more passenger friendly...

OK, Cat, that argument makes sense - thanks for outlining it.

[Cat Driver]

[Old Dog Flying]

Put 5 pilots in a room, pose a question on any subject and you'll get at least 7 opinions..give the same 5 guys a Two-Four and there'll be a riot because they are all right.

Sixty years ago I started flying..in a Fleet Canuck. My instructor was a WW2 fighter pilot and a great guy. He taught me to crab and kick and pray..no wing down following the kick portion of the arrival and it wasn't pretty. Later on in my misadventures I learned to slip in a crosswind, land on one wheel and do a Touch and go without letting the other rubber kiss the ground.

And my only ground loop was in a Tiger Moth on a paved runway where I could not use the slip method. The wing tip being very close to the pavement. Later while instructing, I found that teaching both methods of crosswind control, my students all found the slip method to be the easiest method. My own preference is to crap to about 1/4 mile then slip to touch down again as CS said , depending on the equipment. This allows for better guaging of the degree of crosswind and least amount of control fluctuation.

I also land on the upwind side of the runway as most are crowned for water run-off and when necessary provide for more bank angle when needed. Like landing an old C-150 with a 70 dehree crosswind blowing at 35 knots...which I did on a re-ride with a pissy assed MoT guy..even though it was beyond limits.

But then again when you fly on the bald prairies you rarely have other options

Flame away .
Barney

[Cat Driver]

Hows. it hangin Barney?

I was at Pitt Meadows last Monday for the first time since before Xmas......spring will soon be here and I am planning on spending some time at Pitt working on my Cub so I can get it completed enough to sell it.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Converting a crab into a nice wing low slip in the flare is the most elegant way to handle a crosswind, but it is also the hardest. If you are a low time pilot who perhaps doesn't get to fly as much as they want there is nothing wrong with converting the crab into a slip a few hundred feet in the air getting the aircraft nicely stabilized and then starting the flare with the aircraft already with a wing down and the aircrafts longitudinal axis aligned with the centre line.

One day when I was flying the DC6 we were going into a narrow strip with a humongous crosswind. When I started the flare I had so much crab on that in order to keep the mainwheels straddling the centerline I had to put the cockpit over the upwind edge of the runway. A well timed yaw and roll resulted in the up wind wheel touching just as the aircraft was pointed straight down the middle of the runway. But I had flown 35 hours in the last 6 days and the aircraft fit like an old shoe. However a few weeks ago I was flying a light twin for the first time in over 6 months. Again there was a narrow runway and a nasty crosswind. In this case I elected to take the crab out at about 150 feet AGL and when I started the flare I was nicely established with up wind wing down and the aircraft pointing straight down the runway. If this admission makes me a lesser pilot in the eyes of the Gods of Avcanada...well I can live with that

The point of the exercise is to make a safe landing. A safe crosswind crosswind touchdown requires that the aircraft is pointing straight down the runway, with no drift and on the center line. Before you can get good at crosswind landings you have to be good at landing where wind is not a factor. Every landing should be right on the centerline, with the aircraft straight and at ones chosen touchdown point. I see a lot of pilots have the aircraft just plop the aircraft where ever it happens to run out of steam. Just because you are a low time pilot doesn't mean you should not strive for perfection. Good landings start with good approaches. Be hard on yourself and work to get the approach nailed so that you cross the fence exactly on speed with a flight path aiming for just short of the selected touchdown point and exactly on centreline.

[Big Pistons Forever]

deleted double post

[Big Pistons Forever]

deleted

[Big Pistons Forever]

deleted

[justwork]

Sometimes I slip the last few hundred feet, sometimes I crab until I'm flaring. Depends on the situation. To say one is wrong is wrong. The way I see it, as long as you're not in violation of the aircraft manual, and as long as you're making the plane do what you want safely and comfortably then you're doing it right.

[Cat Driver]

To once again clarify my position.......please read the red highlighted part from my first post here.

I see there is an ongoing discussion on how to use the flight controls to correct for X/Winds in the flight training forum and some pilots use the crossed control side slipping method all the way in on the final approach.

When something as basic as X/wind approaches generates so much emotion and differences in this group I dare not start a discussion about how to fly tail wheel airplanes....especially the old basic trainers like the Fleet Canuck with no brakes on the right hand side.

And for sure it would be pure suicide for me to mention that when Old Dog Flying and me learned in those unsafe trainers we received our PPL's in thirty hours.....

...because we were taught by stone age instructors who did not know jack shit about how to instruct.

[Colonel Sanders]

One of the more challenging certified aircraft that I know there
is to land is the Pitts, and - lucky me - I get to teach people how
to land it, mostly because no one else will bother. Not even the
four-bars here, who seem to know everything.

There are many different ways to fly a final approach to land in
a Pitts, and I would dare to say that none of them are "right".

People here seem to imply that there is only "one way" to land
all airplanes, and that just isn't so.

Even on the single type (Pitts) what I do is demonstrate all the
different techniques used to fly the approach and allow the
student to pick and choose the elements of the approach he
is most comfortable with, and thus perform the safest. He
creates the approach that works for him. In fact, I can tell
who is flying by watching their approach.

The above, of course, is heresy to the white-shirt-and-four-bars
crowd, who all fly cookie-cutter commodity style. Or try to.

Sorry. That's not the way it's done in my world. You try to
bombastically force someone else to do something your way,
(say a low altitude tumble) well, you might as well look up the
number for the TSB right now.

I suppose the four-bar crowd will view us as anarchists and
yahoos, and I'm cool with that. They want to show me a
better tumble, I will certainly watch. From a safe distance.

[Meatservo]

I sometimes wear a white shirt with four bars on it. Colonel Sanders thinks that dressing like a skid makes you a better pilot, in the same way that some other people think that dressing like a Navy officer from "top gun" makes you a better pilot. Some people are full of shit and some aren't. It's hard to tell them apart whatever shirt they wear or how insulting they like to be.