Logging PIC time on someone else's plane

[800man]

Hello everyone, just a quick question.
Can you legally log PIC time in someone else's privately owned plane, if the owner, who isnt an instructor, is in the left seat, (and he wouldnt be able to log it i suppose) and you aren't on the insurance? What about who to put as the PIC in the journey log? Would the insurance company care that it isn't the sole insured pilot?

[DaveC]

Don't think you can log PIC time unless you are on the insurance policy.

[Colonel Sanders]

Most insurance policies cover flight instructors as PIC. Why
not get it out and read it?

I have logged many, many hours as PIC in privately-owned
aircraft (that I do not own).

[ahramin]

If you had an accident and injured someone, would the insurance cover it? Doesn't sound like it, in which case you are operating the aircraft without required insurance.

If you aren't the PIC, don't log PIC time. Simple.

[800man]

Colonel Sanders- neither myself or the planes owner are instructors, we're just friends.
Not to play devils advocate here, but I feel that it's just an insurance company policy thing, not a law of any kind. Ahrahim, if there were some sort of accident in the air, why the heck would we dig up the journey log and sign me as the PIC on that last flight before handing it over to TC? The owner would obviously be sitting right beside me in the plane the whole time and would fill out the info accordingly.
But if this is a grey area, rather not risk it.

[Prairie Chicken]

Decide BEFORE the flight who will be PIC, and operate & log it as such. You can't both be PIC though.

There is a legal requirement for insurance--read the reg & the policy.

[Colonel Sanders]

There is a legal requirement for insurance

Actually, no. This is often misunderstood. TC doesn't care
if you have valid liability insurance or not, which would cover
an accident.

If you read the applicable reg: CAR 606.02(8):

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... htm#606_02

(8) No aircraft owner not referred to in paragraph (2)(a), (b) or (c) shall operate an aircraft unless, in respect of every incident related to the operation of the aircraft, the owner has subscribed for liability insurance covering risks of public liability in an amount that is not less than ...

The CARs require that THE OWNER has subscribed for liability insurance.

This is strange, but true. I have argued it with many Inspectors over many
years, and they all agree that it's pretty stupid, but it's the law.

[Prairie Chicken]

You're right CS. I neglected to specify the liability criteria. TC doesn't care if you carry hull insurance.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Hello everyone, just a quick question.
Can you legally log PIC time in someone else's privately owned plane, if the owner, who isnt an instructor, is in the left seat, (and he wouldnt be able to log it i suppose) and you aren't on the insurance? What about who to put as the PIC in the journey log? Would the insurance company care that it isn't the sole insured pilot?

What you put in your personal log book only matters if you intend to use the time towards a rating or license. If you are applying for say a CPL and a part of the 100 PIC requirement flying was time you logged flying right seat with your buddy, then TC could ask to see the Journey Log of the aircraft in question. If you are not shown as the PIC, that is only your name is in the "crew" column of the JL, then you are going to be in an ugly spot as TC will consider you have made a fraudulent application. You do not want to be on TC's Shit List as they will make your life forever miserable.

[Lost Lake]

Why not just get insured under your friends policy. There usually is no premium unless you are low time. Either that or join COPA and get their insurance plan. They have a low cost insurance for people who want to fly other aircraft.

[Colonel Sanders]

a low cost insurance for people who want to fly other aircraft

Sure, that's nice, but you neglect the requirement of CAR 606.02(8) above
which requires that the OWNER subscribe for the liability insurance.

TC couldn't care less about there being valid liability insurance - most people
assume that, and they are completely wrong.

TC cares about compliance with the CARs, and they are NOT complied with
by renter/borrower (ie valid) liability insurance, because the OWNER has
not "subscribed" it.

No one understand this. Sigh. But many times, I have been threatened
by Inspectors with a contravention on this.

[justwork]

If you went out and stole a plane, you could log it as PIC if you entered it in the log book. If you're the PIC in your buddies plane, then sign the book with your name and put the time in the PIC section of your log book.

[Prairie Chicken]

Or, if you steal a plane, log it as PIC in your pilot log & the a/c journey log.

The police will be sooo pleased with you!

[Colonel Sanders]

Actually, this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colton_Harris-Moore

is certainly entitled to log some very impressive PIC time.

With no dual whatsoever! I would hope he starts a logbook.
He could get the FBI to certify the entries in it!!!

[joco]

CS,
I am partner in an a/c. Our policy has an Approved Pilot Schedule. That is for the day to day flying. The "Qualified Instructors" are covered for the purpose of checkouts, dual time required (under the conditions column if a pilot is low time) and training. You cannot take my plane and go for the $100 hamburger.

You are correct that you can log PIC on somebody else' plane, but you have to qualify the type of flying that you've done.
Cheers

[Colonel Sanders]

You cannot take my plane and go for the $100 hamburger

heh - if there was another pilot in the aircraft (eg an owner) logging
dual, then sure, we could do some cross-country and go get that
burger

[AirFrame]

The CARs require that THE OWNER has subscribed for liability insurance.

Okay, how about clause 9, right below it:

(9) Subject to subsection (10), no owner or operator of an aircraft shall operate the aircraft unless there is carried on board the aircraft proof that liability insurance is subscribed for in accordance with this Section.

So yes, the *owner* shall have subscribed for the insurance. But this says that no owner *or operator* shall operate the aircraft without proof that insurance has been subscribed for carried on board. By "subscribed for", I would expect that implies, even if it doesn't explicitly state, that the insurance is *applicable* to the flight.

So yes, you can borrow the plane that your friend owns and has insured. But if that insurance has a list of "named pilots" and you're not on it, then the insurance doesn't apply and for the purposes of your flight doesn't really exist... The owner has not subscribed for insurance that covers you flying the aircraft.

At least that's how i'm reading it... If i've missed something, i'd like to hear it. Insurance and CARs can be bloody stupidly confusing at times. Don't get me started on the size requirements for registration letters on amateur built aircraft...

Oh, and i'm only talking about liability insurance as well, i just didn't feel like typing "liability" every time I typed "insurance."

[Colonel Sanders]

how about clause 9

Para (9) does not relieve you of the requirement of complying with (8).

You must comply, at every instant, with all of the tens of thousands of
regulations.

[Hornblower]

Airframe, there is a definition of "operator" in CAR 101.01. The Colonel is correct, if i wanted to go flying in his airplane, which is insured by him, I would not be breaking any rules notwithstanding that his insurance does not cover me. The only legal requirement is that the owner subscibe to insurance, other pilots could fly it legally without being covered. (although the aircraft in theory is not covered by insurance when they are flying it)

As for the original question, lots of pilots that fly other's aircraft, and are not insured on said aircraft, log PIC time; there is no law against that. As far as insurance goes, if something bad happened one need just say that the insured pilot was the "pilot". There is no need to inform anyone before a flight who is pilot in command. If all goes well on the flight, the uninsured pilot can log it as PIC, if all goes badly and an insurance claim needs to be made, the insured pilot can claim to have been the PIC. No big deal there - logging PIC like that happens all the time.

[Colonel Sanders]

nutty, huh?

[cgzro]

I am lucky enough now to get to use other tail draggers that have liability but no hull. Since I own and insure my own aircraft for basically everything, I requested a non-owned addition to my policy that extends my liability and hull limits to these occasional use other aircraft. Did not cost much, few hundred a year I think.

[AirFrame]

Para (9) does not relieve you of the requirement of complying with (8).

I agree... Didn't mean to imply otherwise. But I think paras 8 and 9 are telling you that the insurance must cover the operation in progress. I'm pretty sure that my policy on the RV says that the insurance is only valid when one of he named pilots on the policy is flying. If the insurance isn't valid, then it doesn't exist in a legal sense. If I hand CS the keys and say "go fly", I have not subscribed for insurance that covers that flight.

What this doesn't cover, of course, is that my insurance says it will extend to covering me as pilot on any similar aircraft. I've always taken that to mean that I could go fly a friend's RV without issue. But then the policy covering me isn't the owner's policy, it's mine!

Maybe the rules were written back before it was common to have a list of named pilots on the policy?

[Posthumane]

I'd also like to mention that it is possible to get an "open pilot clause" specified in your insurance policy. Basically it states something along the lines of any pilot flying the aircraft with permission from the owner, and holding a PPL or higher license, is covered under the policy even if they aren't explicitly named on it. My first policy had that clause included automatically. On later renewals I asked for it to be included, and it didn't raise the price at all.

[Wilbur]

If you log time as PIC, your name must be in the journey log as the PIC. If your friend's insurance policy does not cover you, his policy will be void for that flight, and possibly every subsequent flight. Your name in the log book as PIC is documented proof of the owner breaching the terms and conditions of his coverage, which probably voids the policy. If it doesn't entirely void the policy, it would certainly provide grounds for the insurance company to deny coverage if the owner and you (or any other pilot) were involved a mishap at some future time. It would certainly provide grounds for them to argue that the owner was breaching his policy at the time of the accident, because he had a documented history of doing so in similar circumstances in the past. They have deep pockets and won't hesitate to litigate if there is a costly claim on the line.

Get added to his policy, get your own coverage, or don't fly as PIC.

[Colonel Sanders]

don't fly

Excellent advice. Aviation is a sin in Canada - something you should feel guilty about doing - so you should quit, before you get punished for your sins.

Realistically, there are tens of thousands of Canadian Aviation Regulations. No one knows what they are, and no one can even agree on what they mean, so there is simply no way you can ever comply with them, so just don't fly.