B737 Classic or Kingair, What is your Choice?

[Just another canuck]

You're young and can be in a jet in Canada soon enough. If its overseas work you want, that won't be far behind. I've flown on Lion and Garuda a lot. Garuda has giant placards on their instrument panel stating approach speeds... Cause they've tried to land at 200 knots too many times. :/

[tbaylx]

Personally I would stay far far away from any Indonesian 737 operators as an F/O. They don't exactly have the best history and i'm not really sure the SOP's and the line flying you'd be taught there would make you a desirable pilot. If it were in Canada or a reputable operator i'd say take the jet time any day. Given the choices you'd mentioned there i'f be far more inclined to take the canadian job.

In the end it's up to you, bu do your research before moving overseas. Once you leave canada it can be awfully hard to get back in.

[wallypilot]

Once you leave canada it can be awfully hard to get back in.

+1

This is especially true when talking about airline flying. Once you leave, it will be very hard to come back years later, not necessarily becase it's hard to find a job, but more because you personally won't want to take the pay cut to come back to Canada.

You also don't tend to get Military Coups or general uprisings in Canada. Things can change overnight in a country like Indonesia.

Personally, I'd stay in Canada. You'll be in a turbine in no time.

Now, going overseas to work with a Canadian, American, or European Operation is a completely different thing. That would be no problem.

[North Shore]

My $.05 would be to stick with the boring-but-tried-and-true 'Ho/kingair route.

Why?

Less unknowns - dozens have trodden the path before you, and it's worked out for them.

Going from a 152/72 to a 737 is a HUGE step. I'm sure that the plane flies like most others, but the complexity of systems/sop's, and the sheer speed of the thing will make your head spin.

$10k? Really? How long is the initial 737 course @ WJ - I'd be willing to guess that it's in the neighbourhood of a month - do you really think that you're going to circumvent that with a 10k cheapo course in the States? Perhaps if you had previous Boeing time, and were familiar with their philosophy and systems design. Did you include in the 10k the cost of living for a number of weeks in a hotel/crashpad while you learn the beast?

Sadly, there's no quick route to experience - trying to jump 3 or 4 steps on the ladder could well end in tears..

[GyvAir]

If you're not a pilot, how would you know if they're "behind the curve" or not. What would you be basing that on? Not trying to be rude here (for a change) but if I'm a passenger, I really have no reference point.

Fair question, Doc.

By flying with, I mean in the right seat or jump seat on ferry and test flights. I'm definitely not a pilot, but have gained enough familiarity with cockpit procedures to know when the PIC (or co-pilot for that matter) is comfortable making decisions under a bit of stress, i.e. challenging weather, congestion, malfunctions, etc.

[DAVE THE RAVE]

To me, the 737 from instructor seems like going from first gear to fifth whereas the humble Navajo would be more like snatching second and then third (King Air).

On a 737 you are going to be bogged down with inexperience and possibly debt that an upgrade will be very far away. You will probably find that those who got some MPIC on a Ho and then some turbine time in a King Air will be at a larger (and probably more local and reputable) carrier in no time and perhaps even making captain sooner.

Are you speaking from experience? I went from instructing on 150/172s with a TT of 2000 hours to the right seat of a A319. (reputable UK airline). Got my up grade in 2 years with 3700 hours. We recruit guys/gals through integrated programs with as little as 140 hours TT. They get on with the job fine.

It's comments like the ones riffed throughout these threads which makes me thankful everyday I left Canada. For some reason, North America has been a refuge for the "you need 4000 hours to touch a jet" brigade.

It's a totally different world out there, and quite refreshing when you leave Canada. I fly with 20-21 year olds all the time.

[CAL]

the 37 is alot easier to fly than a navajo.....its important to listen to all these guys but in the end its about $$ regardless of what anyone says....you ultimately need to pay your bills and someday retire. The quicker you get on that jet the quicker you make more money...especially overseas...down side its not Canada.

How did you get an offer to fly a 37 from instructing? either way go fly the 737...your less likely to die.

[iflyforpie]

I went from instructing on 150/172s with a TT of 2000 hours to the right seat of a A319. (reputable UK airline). Got my up grade in 2 years with 3700 hours. We recruit guys/gals through integrated programs with as little as 140 hours TT. They get on with the job fine.

It's comments like the ones riffed throughout these threads which makes me thankful everyday I left Canada. For some reason, North America has been a refuge for the "you need 4000 hours to touch a jet" brigade.

It's a totally different world out there, and quite refreshing when you leave Canada. I fly with 20-21 year olds all the time.

Maybe it worked for you. That's great. It doesn't work out for the majority though. And I know of guys who got on young with WestJet and Skyservice (RIP) here in Canada and timed expansion right so they got captains seats in no time. Carriers with quick upgrades are often more volatile though, so it becomes more of a gamble.

If you never want to come back to Canada, for sure, go expat. But guys who go expat and then get sick of it wind up coming back and being 5-10 years behind everybody else because it works on seniority and not hours.

Which carrier do you work for if you don't mind me asking?

[Doc]

How did you get an offer to fly a 37 from instructing? either way go fly the 737...your less likely to die.

Sad state of the industry is, this is probably a true statement!

[STOLskunkworks]

If you mean a 737 200 then hell I would go do it just for the sound they make.

Like a Harley of the sky...... Just sounds like victory and Napalm in the Morning all rolled into one thrust producing noise making flame spitting beast.

Of course if you are talking the newer high bypass modern 37 well f it go for the ho / king air you will have more fun.

[Panama Jack]

Given your stated career objectives, the amount of debate seems surprising to me. I see it as a no-brainer. Go with the 737 job in Indonesia. Keep your eyes open though as the Indonesia is the Northern Bush operation equivalent of what we have in Canada; low pay, sometimes questionable characters, SOP's and Standards. No different, than flying your King Air or Navajo BUT you are getting some good quality flight time and living in an interesting place where you will enjoy a superior standard of living.

Once you leave canada it can be awfully hard to get back in.

+1

This is especially true when talking about airline flying. Once you leave, it will be very hard to come back years later, not necessarily becase it's hard to find a job, but more because you personally won't want to take the pay cut to come back to Canada.

True. It is hard to go back to Kraft Dinner with a side of bullshit after you have seen the light and experienced a good standard of living. You might even question whether returning to Canada is really what you want to do. Canada is so much nicer when you have summer vacation from your overseas job and are enjoying yourself with disposable income rather than "at home" but can't go anywhere because you are on Reserve or flying because the guys 15 years senior to you all bid for summer vacation.

Even if you do get sick of nasi goreng after a few years, or the other options out there, and decide that Kraft Dinner isn't so bad, given the quantity and quality of time you will log you should be able to get in through the door of a Canadian airline before the guy who went Navajo or King Air, so then you've got your seniority number and can hope the airline never goes Tango Uniform.

P.S. and yes, a "classic" is a -3/4/500 or, in TC parlance, a B73B

[Diadem]

either way go fly the 737...your less likely to die.

Not in Indonesia...

[Joe Blow Schmo]

Once you leave canada it can be awfully hard to get back in.

Yeah. Usually because you can't imagine returning to the low pay, high taxes, and relatively boring life.

Take the 737 job! Since you haven't named the airline, my only caveat would be to do some research and make sure it is legit and not just some scam to get our TR money. If you really want to come back to Canada, 2 years and 1500-2000 hours of 737 time later, you'll be pretty attractive to Westjet. However if you want to stay overseas you can go to the middle east pretty quickly or get your 737 command and enter the contract world.

[Panama Jack]

+1

Yeah. Usually because you can't imagine returning to the low pay, high taxes, and relatively boring life.

[Cat Driver]

Never mind the low pay high taxes the greatest fear you should have is dying while you wait for medical treatment if you get a serious disease such as cancer.......for medical treatment you are better off in the third world.

[dazednconfused]

Once you leave canada it can be awfully hard to get back in.

Yeah. Usually because you can't imagine returning to the low pay, high taxes, and relatively boring life.

Take the 737 job! .... If you really want to come back to Canada, 2 years and 1500-2000 hours of 737 time later, you'll be pretty attractive to Westjet. However if you want to stay overseas you can go to the middle east pretty quickly or get your 737 command and enter the contract world.

Couple questions here.

1. Would Westjet/AC/Porter/Jazz/even top tier 704 etc respect time you acquired in Indonesia (737 or turboprop)? Say going from very low time piston pilot to 2000 hrs of 737 SIC with Garuda or LionAir. Id think this raises the eyebrows (in a negative way) of some hiring panels or chief pilots here. I could be wrong.

2. Does anyone know, first hand, of someone who has gone to Indonesia with low time, built experience and then moved on to more respectable operations, say in the Middle East? Otherwise a person could be stuck there for a long time - until a local takes your job.

[DAVE THE RAVE]

Which carrier do you work for if you don't mind me asking?

EasyJet

[Colonel Sanders]

On a 737 you are going to be bogged down with inexperience

Maybe, but ... don't they put kids with 300 hrs in the right seat of Boeings
and Airbuses in Europe?

I went straight from piston-prop to pure jet with no problem. Never flown
a turbo-prop. The jet that I fly now is far easier to fly than the C421B.

Despite what you might get told here, you don't have to be a rocket scientist
to fly a jet.

going from very low time piston pilot to 2000 hrs of 737 SIC

I might humbly suggest that you get your ATPL (or be within reasonable
distance of it) when you make that jump. You don't want to be short
on the experience requirement (eg night pic x/c) down the road.

[Joe Blow Schmo]

Once you leave canada it can be awfully hard to get back in.

Yeah. Usually because you can't imagine returning to the low pay, high taxes, and relatively boring life.

Take the 737 job! .... If you really want to come back to Canada, 2 years and 1500-2000 hours of 737 time later, you'll be pretty attractive to Westjet. However if you want to stay overseas you can go to the middle east pretty quickly or get your 737 command and enter the contract world.

Couple questions here.

1. Would Westjet/AC/Porter/Jazz/even top tier 704 etc respect time you acquired in Indonesia (737 or turboprop)? Say going from very low time piston pilot to 2000 hrs of 737 SIC with Garuda or LionAir. Id think this raises the eyebrows (in a negative way) of some hiring panels or chief pilots here. I could be wrong.

I guess that depends on the attitudes of the people doing the hiring. Ask this question on the Westjet forum and maybe Dave P will answer it for you. I can't imagine why it would matter. Flying around Indo would be a similar experience to working in the bush in Canada. You'd just be in a bigger plane.

2. Does anyone know, first hand, of someone who has gone to Indonesia with low time, built experience and then moved on to more respectable operations, say in the Middle East? Otherwise a person could be stuck there for a long time - until a local takes your job.

I work for a "more respectable operation" and we have pilots from all over the world with every background imaginable. The 737 time would probably get you an interview. The rest is up to you. Certainly the 737 time will be more valued to an overseas airline than Canadian bush experience. Personally I think my bush experience was invaluable, however most recruiters in the rest of the world would rather have a guy with 2000 hours, 1800 of which are on 737 than a guy with 5000 hours of piston or TP time.

Though if this Indo airline offers upgrades in a reasonable amount of time I would be tempted to stay and get a couple thousand hours PIC on the 737. Then you'll have plenty of opportunities all over Asia and really won't need to worry about work for a very long time.

[Doc]

1. Would Westjet/AC/Porter/Jazz/even top tier 704 etc respect time you acquired in Indonesia (737 or turboprop)? Say going from very low time piston pilot to 2000 hrs of 737 SIC with Garuda or LionAir. Id think this raises the eyebrows (in a negative way) of some hiring panels or chief pilots here. I could be wrong.

Interesting thread. The ebb and flow. Back and forth. Take the 73. Take the Navajo.
Me? I'd go fly the 73.

As for the above question. What would be the down side of picking up a pilot with 2000 hours of 73 time? No brainer from my point of view. If the guy isn't working out, it'll show up in training. If he does, you've gained an experienced member for the team.

I like Joe Blow Schmo's point as well. Stay and get a few hours of PIC in the puppy. You could be sitting in the cat bird seat in four years....vs......still flying in and out of BU& FU*K AB in a HO!??