Seneca signs cadet program with Jazz

[whiteguy]

I wouldn't be too worried

Yes, as long as they stay away from the 10,000 foot runway at CYYB

Does WJ have the same limitations in YOW? Or Enerjet in YYE? How about crosswind limits in YHZ? No they don't, shit happens to everyone and every airline! Glass houses folks!!!!

[whiteguy]

Isn't the US going to a minimum of 1500 hrs for First Officers for airlines? I wonder if Canada will follow suit.

Are they talking scheduled airlines? Governed by aircraft size? Jets only? I think a minimum of 1500 hours for the guy in the right seat with your family and loved ones on board is pretty reasonable? Perhaps I'm a little old school, but I will not board even a Dash 8 on a scheduled airline, if I know the guy in the right seat can't even qualify for an ATPL.

Stay away from Europe then Doc, plenty of FOs flying anything from Dash 8s to B737 to A320s to B777s that don't meet the ATPL requirements!

Heck I'm even making holes in the sky in northern Alberta in the right seat of a Dash with no ATPL! But that's charter so it doesn't matter.

[Cat Driver]

They have new report forms to fill out now?

Instead of incident or accident reports you now have to submit a shit happened report?

[Colonel Sanders]

shit happens to everyone

Yes and no. Lesson for the youngsters:

You don't get to choose what you are remembered for.

Old joke for you: Grandfather is talking to his grandson:

"Look at those ships in the harbour! I built those ships with my own
two hands. And look at those docks! I built those, too! And see
those houses on the hill? Guess who built those? And do you think
anyone remembers me for that?"

"But you f__k one goat ..."

[whiteguy]

They have new report forms to fill out now?

Instead of incident or accident reports you now have to submit a shit happened report?

What ever form makes you feel better but that wasn't really my point!

[Cat Driver]

What ever form makes you feel better but that wasn't really my point!

I guess I am just too old school to accept " shit happens " when an incident or accident was caused by pilot error rather than by a mechanical malfunction the crew has no control over.

Maybe my attitude towards safety was partly responsible for never having had to fill out any of those incident or accident reports?

[TopperHarley]

Low time pilots go into the right-seat of airplanes up north or in the bush after spending time on the ramp. Compared to airline flying, the work conditions there are usually more harsh; poor support facilities in terms of dispatch, poor access to weather/metar/tafs, limited approaches/no precision approaches, etc. The captains at some of these airlines are also usually fairly young and inexperienced, compared to the captains at Jazz who have much more experience.

I don't support this trend though. Not because I think it's unsafe, since it's not any less safe compared to low-time pilots slugging it out on the ramp (after they've been out of the flying scene for +1 year) and jumping in a plane with paying passengers. But Im against it because there's pilots out there with 1000-1500hrs+ who would very happily go to Jazz.

[whiteguy]

What ever form makes you feel better but that wasn't really my point!

I guess I am just too old school to accept " shit happens " when an incident or accident was caused by pilot error rather than by a mechanical malfunction the crew has no control over.

Maybe my attitude towards safety was partly responsible for never having had to fill out any of those incident or accident reports?

I am in total agreement and plan to never fill out a report either. It was a poor choice of words to get my point across.

But on the other hand it's frustrating to see trash talking about an incident that happened and blaming it on the hiring practices of a company. I have never seen anything to suggest that it was a college grad at the controls. If people don't like the hiring of grads then fine but don't paint them all with the same brush!

[Bajan Pilot]

"I feel bad for the Captains who have to fly with a 300 hour pilot in the right seat. I'm pretty sure sleep inertia won't be an issue on Jazz aircraft!"

To Garrett,

I am one of those captains' who has flown with a few of the 300 hour pilots [as you put it] and have nothing but good to say about all of them, so don't feel bad for us. Your jealousy is showing and you should be very careful and try to curb it. If and when you possibly make it to Jazz your cocky attitude will not be welcome.

[Doc]

If and when you possibly make it to Jazz your cocky attitude will not be welcome.

While we're on the subject of "cocky attitudes...." Could have checked yours at the door for a little credibility?

[xTally]

Does Seneca still teach their students to leave the gear down on the Barons when they are doing circuits?

They took the Bonanzas away because they couldn't keep them right side up. How will they remember the gear on a Baron if they don't just leave it down?

Low blow Doc. I don't mean to sound disrespectful but maybe you should avoid commenting on things like this if you don't know exactly what transpired. From what I've heard, I don't even think the investigators of that accident will ever know why the pilots lost control of that Bonanza. Perhaps it's best to let the dead lie in peace.

[trey kule]

While we're on the subject of "cocky attitudes...." Could have checked yours at the door for a little credibility

I was thinking the same thing.
But lets not tar all the good Jazz captains with the same brush. He is not typical. Most are decent guys who dont feel they are on their way to the big show.....or at least have good enough manners not to post like he did.

[rigpiggy]

"I feel bad for the Captains who have to fly with a 300 hour pilot in the right seat. I'm pretty sure sleep inertia won't be an issue on Jazz aircraft!"

To Garrett,

I am one of those captains' who has flown with a few of the 300 hour pilots [as you put it] and have nothing but good to say about all of them, so don't feel bad for us. Your jealousy is showing and you should be very careful and try to curb it. If and when you possibly make it to Jazz your cocky attitude will not be welcome.

Thats funny, talking with one of your Training/Line Indoc guys, he opined that he would rather fly single pilot into some of the busier stations than fly with "some" of that lot. Train to standard does bugger all when helmet fire sets in, there is a lot to be said for the "oh sh!t factor".

[Colonel Sanders]

I don't even think the investigators of that accident will ever know why the pilots lost control of that Bonanza

Ok, but the people that run the school believe that their instructors cannot fly with outside reference, so they stopped allowing any night flight unless it's solid VMC. I will not disagree with the people who set policy at the school. You can if you wish.

Perhaps it's best to let the dead lie in peace

Sorry, but that's not the way it works in aviation. When something goes wrong in aviation, it is dissected to the nth degree. You might think that comes from purely morbid or prurient curiousity, and I'm sure there's some of that in there, but here's a fact for you:

There are no new causes of accidents in aviation

For example, I strongly doubt that this year, a Boeing will be pulled into space by a tractor beam by a malevolent alien spacecraft. That is not a scenario that we have to worry about, or prepare for.

However, there will be plenty of aviation accidents this year - some fatal, some non-fatal - and I guarantee you that it will occur to some of the people reading this.

Is that important? Well, I hope whether you crash or die in the next year is important to you. And the lessons that you learn from aviators whom have paid the ultimate price are, in my humble opinion, worth learning.

If you're not interested in learning - presumably because you know it all - well, you really don't have to pay attention to accidents. The rest of us do have something to learn, because we don't want to make the same mistake.

The lesson I am seeing from the Seneca Bonanza accident - and the Colgan Dash-8 at Buffalo, and the AF447 3 minute stall into the ocean - is that some supposedly qualified pilots these days are lacking in fundamental skills. They cannot hand-fly on the gauges. They cannot recognize and recover from a stall. They cannot take off and land in a crosswind.

This despite a horribly elaborate, expensive, arduous, byzantine and drawn-out process of becoming an ICAO commercial pilot. Which is delivering very poor value for it's graduates.

You might not consider that a useful observation, but trust me, there are plenty of people who do.

[teacher]

First we were under cutting and now we're too expensive. Not a place to stay as a career for experienced folks but not allowed to hire low timers so they'll stay longer. Apparently the only airline to ever have a runway excursion. Actually read the report Doc and Cat and not just the title.

For the record I would much prefer Jazz hire more experienced people but they feel that something needs to be done to mitigate the big plane goals of some folks and lower the attrition rate. Most low timers I've heard are great but lack the experience to fall back on not surprisingly. You're right though, they should go up north because that's much safer for everyone.

..........and Doc, Bajan Pilot isn't the one with the attitude.

[TG]

Stay away from Europe then Doc, plenty of FOs flying anything from Dash 8s to B737 to A320s to B777s that don't meet the ATPL requirements!

Just to clarify something it is not the same level of study to get your license in Europe. Theory parts that is.
One reason is to bypass this lack of flying experiences since there is not much small aviation over there to get it.

I seems to remember people (me included) bashing this high level of theory needed in Europe to be able to get an ATPL.
And here it is the contrary, I see a lot of criticizes implying that Seneca's grades are not getting what is needed.
I think something in between taking the best of the two systems would be a good solution...In this particular case (Seneca/Jazz)



Anyway, thinking of solutions is better than siding with one way or another while just complaining.
Two pages of this already and no Pitt's video

[trey kule]

One reason is to bypass this lack of flying experiences since there is not much small aviation over there to get it.

Maybe it is just me, but there is really no way to bypass the lack of flying experience, or substitute it with courses.
You need to get in a plane and fly. And do it as PIC, where you are making the decisions. A really good training program can be a big help. It simply takes time to absorb the material and repeat it enough times to make it instinctual if , or when, the time comes that something goes a bit sideways...or downways...

[co-joe]

I feel bad for the Captains who have to fly with a 300 hour pilot in the right seat. I'm pretty sure sleep inertia won't be an issue on Jazz aircraft!

No Shit! That's the funniest thing I've read in a while.

Would you take a nap knowing you were next to a 300 hour wonder in a Dash 8? Come to think of it as a pax will they let me on if I'm wearing a parachute?

[Colonel Sanders]

I see a lot of criticizes implying that Seneca's grades are not getting what is needed

I can't even begin to count the number of spelling and grammatical errors in that sentence. I presume you must be an alumni of Seneca?

Anyhow, who cares about grades? As I said above:

some supposedly qualified pilots these days are lacking in fundamental skills. They cannot hand-fly on the gauges. They cannot recognize and recover from a stall. They cannot take off and land in a crosswind

These are not classroom skills. These are not Napoleon Dynamite skills (nunchuck, bowhunting). Well, actually they might be.

[KAG]

As a student this is a great opportunity. As a pilot I feel there are considerably more qualified pilots up north and instructing. As a husband/Father There is no way I’d allow my family on board with a 300 hour FO in a high performance jet, let alone a Dash without some previous experience.

Nothing against the Seneca Grads, but it’s not needed in Canada to have a cadet program given the surplus of qualified pilots out there.

[Cat Driver]

Actually read the report Doc and Cat and not just the title.

The Jazz over run at North Bay was a mechanical failure?

[Brown Bear]

Air France is a good example of how well the classroom vs. time in an airplane works?

[xsbank]

I despise the habit of post-quoting, which seems to be the modern substitute for reading comprehension. However, this posting summarizes why I keep reading and wasting so much time on this site. This should be engraved on every pilot's brain and should be carved over the door at Seneca College and every other flying training joint too. If you don't get this, you are in the wrong profession:

"Sorry, but that's not the way it works in aviation. When something goes wrong in aviation, it is dissected to the nth degree. You might think that comes from purely morbid or prurient curiousity, and I'm sure there's some of that in there, but here's a fact for you:

There are no new causes of accidents in aviation.

For example, I strongly doubt that this year, a Boeing will be pulled into space by a tractor beam by a malevolent alien spacecraft. That is not a scenario that we have to worry about, or prepare for.

However, there will be plenty of aviation accidents this year - some fatal, some non-fatal - and I guarantee you that it will occur to some of the people reading this.

Is that important? Well, I hope whether you crash or die in the next year is important to you. And the lessons that you learn from aviators whom have paid the ultimate price are, in my humble opinion, worth learning.

If you're not interested in learning - presumably because you know it all - well, you really don't have to pay attention to accidents. The rest of us do have something to learn, because we don't want to make the same mistake.

The lesson I am seeing from the Seneca Bonanza accident - and the Colgan Dash-8 at Buffalo, and the AF447 3 minute stall into the ocean - is that some supposedly qualified pilots these days are lacking in fundamental skills. They cannot hand-fly on the gauges. They cannot recognize and recover from a stall. They cannot take off and land in a crosswind.

This despite a horribly elaborate, expensive, arduous, byzantine and drawn-out process of becoming an ICAO commercial pilot. Which is delivering very poor value for it's graduates.

You might not consider that a useful observation, but trust me, there are plenty of people who do."


This is why Cat, the Colonel, Doc (myself and many others) come across as being rude over incidents like the North Bay over-run and the Seneca Baron thing and why we're so scathing in our attitudes to the apologists. We get it.


To add further fuel to the fire, the proposed FAA rule for 2013 will require 1500 hours before pilots can qualify for an ATP. Pilots in the right seat of Pt.121 (airline) Pt.135 (charter) and fractionals (can't remember what part they fall under) will require ATPs. If you have attended a 4-year degree-granting institute you can have an ATP at 1000 hours. If you are ex-military it will be 750 hours. Transport Canada pays no attention to any other jurisdictions, thinking Canada is the best and so they don't need to bother. Reading comprehension? Anyway, don't expect the FAA rule to migrate here soon. However, there might be an issue with 300 hour 'Cadets' crossing the border on Jazz flights...

[Doc]

Teacher , with a handle like that I would expect some ability to comprehend the English language? Now, I'm no fan of the cadet program, for the same reason as KAG, but nowhere in this thread have I commented on "off runway excursions". That particular thread is about two yeas old. Get past it.

[whiteguy]

For those of you saying you won't get on a plane with low time pilots flying it, there's a great company out in Alberta that can help. It's called Contrail, they'll ensure there are high time pilots flying your planes. Not necessarily skilled but they'll have the time in the log book for you!