WestJet inks deal for Thomas Cook charter flights

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Bede
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Re: WestJet inks deal for Thomas Cook charter flights

Post by Bede »

mbav8r wrote:So, with WestJet becoming part of the problem and not the solution, you're ok with that as long as your profit share cheque rolls in. You must support SunWing as well then....Friggin pilots, we're all a bunch of self serving eogotist
Bede wrote,
Personally, I couldn't care less how many wet leases we have. If we can't do it with our own planes, we need to do it with someone else's. Once it makes financial sense to get our own second type, we better be doing the flying, but not before. The company's financial health is more important than any short term gain for a select few of us.
Well I guess that's the difference between our mentality. You would sacrifice your employers profitability for the short term gain and I am willing to give up a little for long term gain. This attitude is not limited to this issue- it permeates everything within our organizations and is the reason why our organizations have such divergent long term outlooks.

I can look at this issue from a me first viewpoint or a company viewpoint. Regardless of which way I look at this issue, I still end up with the same conclusion- I support it until we can do it more profitably.
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mbav8r
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Re: WestJet inks deal for Thomas Cook charter flights

Post by mbav8r »

I'm sure all the Sunwing pilots said the same thing when the foreign pilot issue crept in, now there's an unfair cost advantage and it's driving down yields for all tour operators. Sunwing's CEO recently said there was an over capacity in this segment, but did'nt shoulder any blame for that.
WestJet started with one 57, this year came a TC wetlease that was so cost effective, it warranted getting out of 3 remaining years of a contract, now you'll have 2 or more next year.
Nope, not part of the problem as far as I can see, Bede maybe you can help me out.
Why is it ok to lower the bar in the name of profit?
I guess you'll be willing to take a paycut down the road, you know so your company can make a profit.
Well I guess that's the difference between our mentality. You would sacrifice your employers profitability for the short term gain and I am willing to give up a little for long term gain. This attitude is not limited to this issue- it permeates everything within our organizations and is the reason why our organizations have such divergent long term outlooks.
Oh and as far as our mentality goes, we gave a lot to help our company try and diversify,
unfortunatley WalJet undercut us.
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Mach1
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Re: WestJet inks deal for Thomas Cook charter flights

Post by Mach1 »

I know I am going to regret this but... here it goes.

mbv8r, you are being trolled by Bede. Nothing has been announced about WJ getting any more 757's. If you had bothered to read the article I posted, you would have noticed the TC is selling as much as 20% of their fleet to pay the bills. The other articles posted have stated that this is TC buying seats on our 737 fleet, not wet leasing us airplanes. I may be proven wrong later but for now, I am not seeing anything that has us adding 'your' planes to our fleet... so calm down. Now; If, and I mean if, there is an announcement that a bunch of 757's are showing up on our door with British pilots, then that is our problem (WJ pilots) and we will deal with it as we see fit.

Here's the really important thing for you... we are pilots. We all fly airplanes. Lets be nice to each other and let the management take care of the competing side of the business. Because, if you aren't already aware of this, our CEO and your CEO have drinks from time to time and they play nice, understanding that business is business.
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B757FO
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Re: WestJet inks deal for Thomas Cook charter flights

Post by B757FO »

mbav8r wrote:I'm sure all the Sunwing pilots said the same thing when the foreign pilot issue crept in, now there's an unfair cost advantage and it's driving down yields for all tour operators. Sunwing's CEO recently said there was an over capacity in this segment, but did'nt shoulder any blame for that.
WestJet started with one 57, this year came a TC wetlease that was so cost effective, it warranted getting out of 3 remaining years of a contract, now you'll have 2 or more next year.
Nope, not part of the problem as far as I can see, Bede maybe you can help me out.
Why is it ok to lower the bar in the name of profit?
I guess you'll be willing to take a paycut down the road, you know so your company can make a profit.
Well I guess that's the difference between our mentality. You would sacrifice your employers profitability for the short term gain and I am willing to give up a little for long term gain. This attitude is not limited to this issue- it permeates everything within our organizations and is the reason why our organizations have such divergent long term outlooks.
Oh and as far as our mentality goes, we gave a lot to help our company try and diversify,
unfortunatley WalJet undercut us.
Ok I'll bite on this one.

mbav8tr. I fully understand what you are saying with regards to the whole diversify route. We tried to do the same at Skyservice before we got pushed under the rug because we were undercut by someone. TC also cancelled the contract early as did signature. Perhaps you may see the flying again in the future as is the case with many of us who ended up at westjet. I feel for your situation and trust me I understand how it feels. I can assure you though when employees are faced with the street or a paycut you to would take the later.
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Last edited by B757FO on Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rudder
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Re: WestJet inks deal for Thomas Cook charter flights

Post by rudder »

Another fundamental change for TC by abandoning dedicated aircraft is no premium product. TC had invested quite a bit in offering hot meals and other extras on Jazz which will no longer be available on the seat purchase deal with WJ. It just goes to show that most of the decisions are commercially driven and have little or nothing to do with the pilots.
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Bede
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Re: WestJet inks deal for Thomas Cook charter flights

Post by Bede »

mbav8r wrote: Nope, not part of the problem as far as I can see, Bede maybe you can help me out.
Why is it ok to lower the bar in the name of profit?
I can answer that- because if a company is not profitable, there are no jobs for any of us.

Seriously? We're the highest paid narrow body pilots in this country and near the top in all of North America. And we're lowering the bar?

Let's assume WJ pilots got the 757 flying. There would be 6 FO's upgraded to captain for 6 months of the year, so basically 3 per year. A captain earns about $50/hr more, so, averaging across the entire pilot group, each of us would earn an extra $140/yr. In turn, the company would lose millions to save one route. The loss in profit share alone would be more than $140/yr. Sorry, but I'm not that selfish, and I don't vote for contracts based on what the Jazz pilots want.

You guys can continue with slogans like "lowering the bar", "race to the bottom", and the rest of the crap they put out in union magazines, but we're all governed by the laws of economics. The difference is that some of us understand that, and others do not.

BTW, WJA never undercut the Jazz 757 operation. TC were losing money on it, and found it was cheaper to buy seats on WJ than to operate a fleet of 6 aircraft- it's not like we took over your 757 aircraft. Despite my reputation as a capitalist pig, I am honestly sorry that Jazz lost the TC contract. I wish you guys all the best.
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cv990
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Re: WestJet inks deal for Thomas Cook charter flights

Post by cv990 »

As a Jazz pilot, I too was sorry to see the TC flying end. At the start, it seemed like a real opportunity for diversity for us. It was fun while it lasted. But one of the realities, is that all-inclusives operate on absolutely razor thin margins, and it absolutely makes sense to buy seats on someone else's aircraft. After TC started to liquidate a lot of their European operation, we could see it coming here. Loads out of YVR were poor.. 60-odd on a 215 seat aircraft at times. TC are not out of the water by any means, but for now this makes way more sense.
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haironfire
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Re: WestJet inks deal for Thomas Cook charter flights

Post by haironfire »

I have to laugh when I hear Jazz pilots saying that WJ is lowering the bar by doing the TC flying. As a former 757 Captain at Skyservice I saw our company undercut by Jazz. We were told at the time Jazz was the lowest paid 757 Captains in the world. I don't know if that is true, but that is what our union told us. So I wouldn't be too quick in flinging the "lower the bar" slogan.
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rudder
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Re: WestJet inks deal for Thomas Cook charter flights

Post by rudder »

haironfire wrote:... but that is what our union told us. .
SKYPAC told you a lot that was not true. Go read the court files on the insolvency and liquidation of SkyService and the truth is all there. Your company was dead due to ill conceived ownership financing structure and the poorly timed loss of the TUI contract. The only ones that knew in advance were in the SSV Executive suite but they never bothered to tell you. Your model would not have withstood the current TC restructuring any better than Jazz. The difference between Jazz and SkyService is that the Jazz pilots still have jobs even without TC. And you clearly do not understand the Jazz pay system. Operating the 757's added $$ to every Jazz pilots paycheck. The loss of the 757's will have the same effect in reverse. But that loss is buffered by the Jazz pay system and the individual pay reductions will not change anybody's standard of living.

The business is constantly changing and the answer is to get out in front of it rather than get run over by it. Kudos to WJ for breaking the code.
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CAL
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Re: WestJet inks deal for Thomas Cook charter flights

Post by CAL »

bede...not even close...but love the support of your airline....might as well.....
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... hwest.html
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B757FO
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Re: WestJet inks deal for Thomas Cook charter flights

Post by B757FO »

rudder wrote:
haironfire wrote:... but that is what our union told us. .
SKYPAC told you a lot that was not true. Go read the court files on the insolvency and liquidation of SkyService and the truth is all there. Your company was dead due to ill conceived ownership financing structure and the poorly timed loss of the TUI contract. The only ones that knew in advance were in the SSV Executive suite but they never bothered to tell you. Your model would not have withstood the current TC restructuring any better than Jazz. The difference between Jazz and SkyService is that the Jazz pilots still have jobs even without TC. And you clearly do not understand the Jazz pay system. Operating the 757's added $$ to every Jazz pilots paycheck. The loss of the 757's will have the same effect in reverse. But that loss is buffered by the Jazz pay system and the individual pay reductions will not change anybody's standard of living.

The business is constantly changing and the answer is to get out in front of it rather than get run over by it. Kudos to WJ for breaking the code.
Well as sour as the "we still have jobs" comment sucks to read. I understand your post and your pay. But comparing a T4 by position and a salary by a group is not the same sorry. You can tell yourselves that all you want. When you file your taxes at the end of the year you ask yourself one question. Am I happy I am getting paid this much and am I worth this little? The reason the industry pays more for larger aircraft is obvious and as it should be. The AC B777 guys making 240 bucks and hour deserves it no? The guy flying the embraer should make less? Huge difference in plane types dude sorry. You guys had a one of where a larger plane got entered into the mix for a short time and you mitigated it in my opinion the only way you could. Keep everyone happy. Which is a good thing. A survival thing which you mention and I agree fully. However I do not agree with you at all about the pay thing. Starting left seat at SSV was 120k and right seat was 62k regardless of your tiered years of service pay at jazz. Your senior 757 drivers at the end of these last 2 years made less than a captain did at ssv end of story. Regardless of spreading the money across the board and I think thats where my coheart is coming from. So yes some see the glass half full. Hard T4 numbers. As for a comparison between SSV and Jazz. You are a crewing company much like SSV was. Your just bigger. You kinda come across a little strong in your post but like ssv you are one contract away from the street also no? If AC sends work to the boys at Skyregional from you are you not in trouble? I think there allot of similarities between ssv and jazz.
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Re: WestJet inks deal for Thomas Cook charter flights

Post by rudder »

B757FO wrote: I think there allot of similarities between ssv and jazz.
Perhaps. The Jazz pilots bear no ill will towards the SSV pilots just as they should not bear any ill will towards the Jazz pilots. But the Jazz pilots will not be caught unprepared if and when the dominoes start to fall. That is just one of the advantages of being a part of large international pilot union rather than a boutique association with limited perspective and limited resources.
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Re: WestJet inks deal for Thomas Cook charter flights

Post by haironfire »

Unfortunately the race to the bottom continues and we as pilots get sucked into it. Jazz undercut Skyservice when it came to the TC contract. Now Skyregional is trying to undercut Jazz when it comes to the AC contract. There are a number of former Skyservice pilots at Skyregional. I don't believe there is any bad blood between the pilots personally, but i really hate how this industry works. I wish that College of pilots could equal the playing field and make it fair for everyone. Pipe-dream maybe?
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Re: WestJet inks deal for Thomas Cook charter flights

Post by unregistered »

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rudder
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Re: WestJet inks deal for Thomas Cook charter flights

Post by rudder »

haironfire wrote: We were told at the time Jazz was the lowest paid 757 Captains in the world.
Here is the "highest paid" remaining 757 operator based in Canada - Morningstar:

http://..com/?page_id=568

Quite a few Jazz B757 pilots T4'd above these numbers.
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HolyShitBatman!
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Re: WestJet inks deal for Thomas Cook charter flights

Post by HolyShitBatman! »

TC is buying seats on WS to the point we can add 3 additional aircraft (lease extensions) to Southern routes. They've already been buying seats on us - predominantly in Western Canada - and have found the arrangement to be beneficial for them. It certainly is for Westjet. Great news for us.
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Flying Nutcracker
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Re: WestJet inks deal for Thomas Cook charter flights

Post by Flying Nutcracker »

Just like the flying public will go for the cheapest fare, the airlines in the industry have to go for the lowest cost. It comes down to being competitive as a business.

I don't like paycuts! I've taken one every time I have gotten on with a bigger company. But in a sense... That's business!

Having said that, if you give a little short term, the long term usually is gain...

All I see here is a Canadian company with Canadian crews gaining more flying. Race to the bottom? I think it's being competitive.

Anyways... What was the topic?
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mbav8r
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Re: WestJet inks deal for Thomas Cook charter flights

Post by mbav8r »

Flying Nutcracker
All I see here is a Canadian company with Canadian crews gaining more flying. Race to the bottom? I think it's being competitive.

Anyways... What was the topic?
Does this seem like Canadian crews gaining more flying to you? The summer transatlantic capacity would have been Jazz(Canadian) pilots not a wet lease with UK pilots!
rudder wrote,
The rumour mill is 3 G-reg 757's crewed by TC UK for winter 2012/2013.

This could also lead to summer capacity for transatlantic.
haironfire wrote,
Unfortunately the race to the bottom continues and we as pilots get sucked into it. Jazz undercut Skyservice when it came to the TC contract. Now Skyregional is trying to undercut Jazz when it comes to the AC contract. There are a number of former Skyservice pilots at Skyregional. I don't believe there is any bad blood between the pilots personally, but i really hate how this industry works. I wish that College of pilots could equal the playing field and make it fair for everyone. Pipe-dream maybe?
We have been told by our management that the jazz bid was 30% higher than other bids, does that sound like a race to the bottom?
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palm90
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Re: WestJet inks deal for Thomas Cook charter flights

Post by palm90 »

The 3 757's WILL be flown by WJ pilots all year around.
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True North
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Re: WestJet inks deal for Thomas Cook charter flights

Post by True North »

palm90 wrote:The 3 757's WILL be flown by WJ pilots all year around.
:lol: :lol: :rolleyes:
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