Question about power on stalls

[schmoo]

While practising power on stalls in preparation for my flight test, I noticed that whenever I was turning right while climbing, the left wing would stall first. But whenever I tried to stay coordinated with right ruddeer, the left wing would stall first. I thought I read that by staying coordinated, both wings should stall together. Am I wrong about this ? Is the right wing dropping only because I am likely not releasing the right rudder quickly enough upon the stall ? Is it more complicated than that ?

Thanks.

[Go Juice]

What was your instructor's answer to that?

I seen question like that come up a couple times that the instructor could have answered easily. Is it that students are too afraid to look stupid to their instructors or is it that their instructors don't know shyte???

Seriously, You are paying an instructor, Use him and abuse him.

[MUSICMAAN]

Torque

[schmoo]

What was your instructor's answer to that?

I seen question like that come up a couple times that the instructor could have answered easily. Is it that students are too afraid to look stupid to their instructors or is it that their instructors don't know shyte???

Seriously, You are paying an instructor, Use him and abuse him.

I've already done hundreds of things wrong in front of my instructor, so I'm certainly not afraid of looking stupid. I guess I could wait until i see my instructor again, but at this point, I am only seeing him once a week. I don't like to email or text him with these kinds of questions since I figure I am paying him for our time together. I belong to several forums and asking questions online is just something that people do. Even if my instructor had already answered the question for me, I would still probably float it out there, just to see if other people could explain it better or had a different answer altogether.

[Go Juice]

Fair enough!!

I do stupid things all the time too

[frog]

In a climbing turn, the high wing stalls first, in a descending turn the low wing stalls first.
That is what i learnt, but i always found it hard to visualize.

[Colonel Sanders]

I thought I read that by staying coordinated, both wings should stall together

heh heh heh ... No. It's a good start, but no guarantee.

As people above have mentioned, geometry effects in climbing
and descending turns change the relative AOA. And all the wing
cares about is AOA. See page 62 in the 4th Edition of the FTM.

As someone else has mentioned, the effects of the prop are
more noticeable at slow speeds ... gyroscopic precession,
slipstream, torque, asymmetric thrust, etc. Remember that
the prop does not push a nice cylinder of air directly backwards
over and behind the aircraft. Instead what you get is a corkscrew
of air, rotating around the fuselage. That is not symmetrical, and
neither is the aircraft! Some aircraft have a noticeable angle on
the vertical fin when viewed from above, and the engine is typically
mounted pointing down and to the right.

And, the wings are twisted - it's called washout - so that the tips
have less AOA than the wing roots.

[schmoo]

... the effects of the prop are
more noticeable at slow speeds ... gyroscopic precession,
slipstream, torque, asymmetric thrust, etc.

But these are left yawing tendancies, no ? The scenario I'm curious about is one like this : A power-on stall while turning right. Plane is slipping. You use right rudder to centre the ball. Stall occurs and right wing drops rather than both wings together.

In trying to make sence of why this happens, I have narrowed it down to these choices. Feel free to add your own choices.

1) I'm not recognizing the stall early enough and am holding right rudder a little too long and helping the wing to drop
2) The wings really are dropping together but since I am banking it just feels like the right wing is dropping first
3) I'm delusional.

If it's choice #2, then i guess since the plane is already banked to the right, it's going to take some left rudder to level the wings anyway, no ?

Sorry to beat a dead horse over what is probably a very elementary question. Maybe there needs to be a "newbie question" section for questions such as mine. I would basically live in that section !

[frog]

My 2 cents :
If you are in a right climbing turn and the right wing drops first, it is because you are not flying coordinate or maybe the plane is old and bent.
Or the plane was not climbing after all...

Or the plane didn't read carefully TC publications !

[DanWEC]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it less about p factor and more about the actual purpose of having the dihedral angle on the wings? The high wing, with a greater AOA, looses lift first and creates a self stabilizing condition?
I would assume conversely, in a left climbing turn the right wing should stall first.
The dihedral stabilizes the aircraft in straight and level, and reduces the tendency for a spiral dive.

[Genetk44]

I could swear I read in one of my student books that during a climbing turn the high wing will stall first and drops causing a stall over the top...it catches people out until they practice it....

[Krimson]

Yes, in a right climbing turn the left wing should stall first. Assuming coordinated flight and a smooth day. A bit of turbulence at the right moment could stall the right wing before the left, cause the right wing to drop.

When you are holding the right rudder in, it may also be possible that you are keeping too much rudder at the point of stall. Have your instructor preform the same stall, and notice the where the ball is and which wing drops.

Either way, as long as you know why the wing dropped and to use only your rudder only to pick up the wing, it doesn't really matter which wing drops.

[buck82]

Just stand on opposite rudder, no matter which wing drops. Sometimes an aircraft will surprise you and not do what the rules say it should. In slow slow/stall flight use the rudder to keep wings level and check that you don't have any aileron on, as this will agravate the insipient spin.

[crazy_aviator]

Do instructors these days teach and have students do climbing and descending turn stalls ?

[schmoo]

I've never been shown a descending turning stall personally. From what I;ve read about them, I'm in no hurry to experience one.

Is it possible that I have confused a climbing stall with a steep turn stall (i.e.) a steep turn stall, if coordinated, would have both wings stall at the same time ? I think so.

10-4 on the advice to just kick in with opposite rudder regardless of which wing drops first. Just trying to get comfortable with the physics of it in the hope that it will translate into being a better pilot.

I appreciate the replies.

[frog]

Honestly my experience of turn descending stalls is quite uneventful on a trainer as 172 or Cherokee anyway.
The turn climbing stall is the one a bit more surprising as the wing is dropping quickly and leading to a spin if you don't recovery.
Get your instructor to take you at a safe altitude and do them all until you are confortable with it.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Just stand on opposite rudder, no matter which wing drops. Sometimes an aircraft will surprise you and not do what the rules say it should. In slow slow/stall flight use the rudder to keep wings level and check that you don't have any aileron on, as this will agravate the insipient spin.

Exactly ! The point of the exercise is to recognize and recover from the stall regardless of which wing drops.

BTW when I demo this manoever I show a wing drop into the turn and away from the turn, by applying a bit of rudder in the desired direction of the wing drop just before the aircraft stalls.

[Gannet167]

In a climbing turn, the up-going wing will have a higher angle of attack - which means it *should* always stall first, even if you're coordinated. This is really hard to visualize in your mind, but it's fully true. A level turn is different - coordinated, both wings should stall together as they're seeing the same AOA.

The prop, turbulence, etc. can have non-symmetrical effects on how a plane flies and so it could provoke the plane to do something weird with power on. At the end of the day, recognize the direction - regardless of what you were expecting - and recover. If you have to use the recovery technique in real life you probably will be surprised by the stall and need to recover to save your bacon. So, being able to properly recover without the preconceived notion of what direction the stall will go is a good thing.