Clearance Readbacks

[grimey]

grimey, how on earth would a pilot know that? And even though i now know, how would i know when you have a copy of the flight plan in front of you and when you do not? This seems like a pointless exception as it could never be used.

I'd guess that it would only be used by airline pilots on sked flights, who flight plan for the SID all the time, and get told by FSS after reading it back that the readback isn't required. But I really don't know. Since it doesn't apply here (we have no SID, and generally don't get IFR flight plans), I don't know exactly how it would work. Anyway, an FSS is usually slow enough that giving a readback isn't too much of a hassle for the pilot or the FSS.

Anyway, I didn't make up the rules.

[bush pilot]

thats what a heading bug and a altitude display is for (for those of us who have one)

[Hedley]

Heh - a heading bug is sure nice. For that matter, so is a heading indicator.

Flying the Pitts, there are NO gyros whatsoever. Just a whiskey compass which bobbles and wobbles amusingly but is of little value in determining heading.

What to do when ATC gives you vectors to fly? Tell them all of the above, and say "unable"? Some people would fly the given vector as a track on their portable GPS, but not me, no sir. That would be illegal and I would never do that.

[Cat Driver]

hmmmm I find the prop acts like a gyro in the Pitts... .

[lilfssister]

Three words Single Pilot IFR, or is that 5?

An even if there are two of us riding up front, after hand flying 5 legs in IMC while getting bounced around since takeoff we're a little screwed up. No offense but I would love to get a break every 20 min - 1 hour I spend actually working (may not apply to FSS).

It's simply one of those things you may not understand until you've had to do it.

The breaks certainly don't happen that way in any of the FSSs I've ever worked in. Try anywhere from 8 to 12 hours with NO breaks, a lot of days. Your "single pilot IFR" can be easily understood by FSS working in a "single stand station", which is a lot of them.

[captain_v1.0]

Hence (may not apply to FSS.) I've visited several of them and realise that many can be lonely, and quiet or chaotic depending on the time of day. I never said you have an easy job but getting a clearance copied precisely for a beautiful readback is a distant second compared to every other task I have. Remember that old saying if the pilot screws up they die, if ATC/FSS screws up the pilot still dies.

Aviate/Navigate/Communicate/Read a magazine/Get more coffee

P.S. I still like dropping by to get the weather in person where possible but most FSS aren't really set up for this anymore, and although I wish I did I've never had a chance to actually file in person instead I have to use that damn PIK/ATM which is usually situated between the bloody coke machine and the can.

[bush pilot]

Hey Captain_v1.0

I am not trying to get you going here or anything but shouldn't single pilot IFR be done with an auto pilot, hence no hand flying for five hrs aswell as being legal.

[captain_v1.0]

bush pilot, you are 110% right and that is the case when operating a commercial air service but I'm speaking from the stand point of an owner/renter. I still like to yank the old (really really old) PA44 out to get my jollies and there are times when I would give someone elses left nut* to have a functioning autopilot because even a basic one makes the job many times easier.

*(I would never give my left nut because I like all three of them and they make a great team.)

When I was going through my inital training for my group 1 my instructor said if he had his way it would be a matter of no autopilot = no single pilot IFR.

How do some of the others feel aboout this?

[bush pilot]

I was at a place where we were two crew and no auto pilot yet your co-pilot was just put on the plane with 250hrs and had not flown in about a year, and the last plane they flew was a 172 or light twin. So here you are trying to walk them through everything as well as fly the plane in IFR. Its was not to bad, you did have a extra set of eyes even though they are still being trained.

[xsbank]

Thanks for pointing out those uncontrolled airport SIDS, I still have not looked at a Jepp; I admit to a certain lack of accuracy in my last posts but I am posting this quote for the third time. It is in the AIM so I did not make it up, also it is the most accurate it will ever get. And just to make sure there is no more confusion injected from my end, a Departure Procedure is NOT a SID.

I have not flown IFR into an uncontrolled airport since 1999 so my brain cells are a bit rusty. Everywhere I seem to go these days is controlled.

"A clearance received by a pilot must be read back to the controller (CAR 602.31), except in certain circumstances. When the clearance is received on the ground, before departing a controlled aerodrome, and an SID is included in the clearance, the pilot only needs to acknowledge receipt of the clearance by repeating the aircraft call sign and the transponder Code that was assigned. If there is an amendment to the altitude contained in the SID, that altitude shall also be read back. At any time that the controller requests a full readback, the pilot shall comply. Also, the pilot may, at any time, read back a clearance in full to seek clarification."

[elvis]

Can anyone provide a clear REFERANCE to where to place your call sign in an ATC clearance or instruction .
Long ago I was taught your call sign proceeds the ATC instruction.

It seems in listening to read backs today most pilots read back their clearance or instructions ,then end their transmission with their call sign.

The AIP section does not provide a definitive explanation . ATC seems not to care, just as long as you include your ident in the read back.

YOUR THOUGHTS!!!


KEEP ALERT AND WATCH FOR OTHER AIRCRAFT

[ahramin]

R - e - f - e - r - e - n - c - e. 4 Es, no A:

ICAO Doc 4444 - Procedures for Air Navigation Services or
ICAO Annex 10 Volume 2 - Aeronautical Telecommunications

In all examples the aircraft callsign follows the readback:

Station:
TWA NINE SIX THREE MADRID - ATC CLEARS TWA NINE SIX THREE TO DESCENT TO NINE THOUSAND FEET

Aircraft (acknowledging):
CLEARED TO DESCEND TO NINE THOUSAND FEET - TWA NINE SIX THREE

Station (acknowledging accuracy of readback):
MADRID

[Meatservo]

I used to have a stack of those little clearance copying post-it-like papers from "flight safety". I liked those but I ran out.

I have to admit, I don't fly IFR very often and I frequently and inexplicably feel like I have a mouthful of marbles when I'm reading back a clearance. I just don't do it that often. I usually step in after my co-pilot has made a dog's breakfast of the readback, and since I wasn't the guy who wrote it down I don't do too well either.

Now that I realise this really bugs the FSS guys I'm tempted to go learn those abbreviations. When I grow up I might want to be able to sound all cool on the radio and stuff.

[C-GKNT]

...

When I was going through my inital training for my group 1 my instructor said if he had his way it would be a matter of no autopilot = no single pilot IFR.

How do some of the others feel aboout this?

I have flown my 65' Mooney single pilot IFR since I got my instrument rating in 2001. My Mooney has a basic wing leveler which really doesn't work all that well. Basically single-pilot IFR/no autopilot. While I would love to have an autopilot, it just does not make economical sense to add one to the airframe.

First few times in "hard" IFR were challenging, especially with turbulence... you get used to it. I learned to be organized and plan WELL ahead for approaches.

I went to SIMCOM this spring and my instructor told me that he often encounters pilots who CANNOT fly without an autopilot. He said it was obvious to him that I had spent a lot of time hand-flying in IFR conditions.

Having said all that, a good auto-pilot was #1 on the list for my new plane.

Glenn

[justwork]

I just want to ask all the pilots out there a question. Why is it so difficult for pilots to read back clearances in some semblence of order like how it was passed to them by FSS. Is there a reason why?

Human beings can't multitask. We do have the ability to switch our attention from one task to the next very quickly but we cannot multitask and maintain the same level of performance compared to being dedicated to one task. Otherwise we could drive and talk on our cell, we could read something and listen to someone, watch TV without ignoring our wife, and write down a clearance while starting an engine, calculating fuel, listening to a flight attendant, wondering why the clearance is different than filed, wondering why the prick beside you is staring at you, and the list goes on. I understand that while you're in your FSS station there are often multiple events occurring at the same time that will require your attention, but it's different. In the flight deck you are confined to a small space that has multiple stimulus designed to grab your attention, you also have a lot of background noise (fans, chimes, passengers, cabin crew ect which are distracting as well. Finally you're looking at your OFP and seeing what is filed, then being cleared something entirely different is a distraction too. Compound this with our industries total disregard for fatigue and laughable duty limits and I think you have an answer.

Pilots are humans, we make mistakes, we get tired, we are not computers that can multitask without error (exception: Cat. Who can read back a CX in morse code while hand proping a turbine, being serviced by the cute FA, and correcting GPS coordinates with his sexton because that's how they were taught in the olden days) eventually we'll get it right, be off your freq, and pissing off the next ATCer with our inability to listen and respond, we'll do that all the way to the pub.

[Meatservo]

(exception: Cat. Who can read back a CX in morse code while hand proping a turbine, being serviced by the cute FA, and correcting GPS coordinates with his sexton because that's how they were taught in the olden days) .

1) They didn't have turbines in those days

2) They were called "stewardesses" (or "stewards" ) back then

3) sextant

[Dagwood]

You guys realise this thread is almost 7 years old?

[Cat Driver]

Yeh Meatservo I get all cluster.ucked in my thinking when it comes to things as complicated as readbacks.

My recall of how pilots in the Socialist Republic of Canada communicate has faded somewhat as I have not flown a commercial flight here since 1996.

For sure we did not have many turbine powered airplanes when we had to know morse code to hold an instrument rating.

However the last airplane I flew IFR in Eurocontrol not only had turbines the fu.kin thing had autoland.

This morning I am just fornicating the canine in my motor home at a R.V. Park in the Shushawp in B.C.

For sure my motor home is more difficult to drive than the Boeing was.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The bottom line here is simple. FSS exists to provide a service to the pilot not the other way around. There is of course a 2 way responsibility here, with a clear onus on the pilot to make the proper calls at the right place and use his time on the radio efficiently. However if the pilot garbles the readback the solution is not for the FSS to get snitty or give it again at Mach 1, I think it is to show a bit of understanding and help the pilot out.

Fortunately the majority of FSS Guy/Gals get it and work to facilitate air movements, which is the whole point of the exercise. Unfortunately there a few dickwads in the FSS system, a very well known one lives in the YCD cab, for instances, who seem to go out of their way to make my life as a pilot difficult.

BTW the only ATC CADOR I have ever gotten was from the High Level FSS. It was 0130 on a clear summer night and I was coming in VFR from Fort Mac after a very long day. I checked in with High Level 50 miles out and from then until I joined the circuit there was Not One other transmission on the MF frequency. Th FSS CADOR'd me because I called in on late downwind instead of entering the MF area . That did not do much to endear me to the FSS folks.....

[thatdaveguy]

BTW the only ATC CADOR I have ever gotten was from the High Level FSS. It was 0130 on a clear summer night and I was coming in VFR from Fort Mac after a very long day. I checked in with High Level 50 miles out and from then until I joined the circuit there was Not One other transmission on the MF frequency. Th FSS CADOR'd me because I called in on late downwind instead of entering the MF area . That did not do much to endear me to the FSS folks.....

I'm not doubting your story, but your story is BS. The FSS wouldn't (and couldn't) have CADORed you for failing to call entering the zone, because there is no requirement to call entering the zone. Here's your required calls:

602.101 The pilot-in-command of a VFR aircraft arriving at an uncontrolled aerodrome that lies within an MF area shall report

(a) before entering the MF area and, where circumstances permit, shall do so at least five minutes before entering the area, giving the aircraft's position, altitude and estimated time of landing and the pilot-in-command's arrival procedure intentions;

(b) when joining the aerodrome traffic circuit, giving the aircraft's position in the circuit;

(c) when on the downwind leg, if applicable;

(d) when on final approach; and

(e) when clear of the surface on which the aircraft has landed.

So what really happened before you massage your stories to slam FSS?

[YYZSaabGuy]

I'm not doubting your story, but your story is BS. The FSS wouldn't (and couldn't) have CADORed you for failing to call entering the zone, because there is no requirement to call entering the zone. Here's your required calls:

602.101 The pilot-in-command of a VFR aircraft arriving at an uncontrolled aerodrome that lies within an MF area shall report
(a) before entering the MF area and, where circumstances permit, shall do so at least five minutes before entering the area, giving the aircraft's position, altitude and estimated time of landing and the pilot-in-command's arrival procedure intentions;
So what really happened before you massage your stories to slam FSS?

I suspect BPF simply substituted "zone" for "area" in his discussion.

[Beefitarian]

BTW the only ATC CADOR I have ever gotten was from the High Level FSS. It was 0130 on a clear summer night and I was coming in VFR from Fort Mac after a very long day. I checked in with High Level 50 miles out and from then until I joined the circuit there was Not One other transmission on the MF frequency. Th FSS CADOR'd me because I called in on late downwind instead of entering the MF area . That did not do much to endear me to the FSS folks.....

I'm not doubting your story, but your story is BS. The FSS wouldn't (and couldn't) have CADORed you for failing to call entering the zone, because there is no requirement to call entering the zone. Here's your required calls:

602.101 The pilot-in-command of a VFR aircraft arriving at an uncontrolled aerodrome that lies within an MF area shall report

(a) before entering the MF area and, where circumstances permit, shall do so at least five minutes before entering the area, giving the aircraft's position, altitude and estimated time of landing and the pilot-in-command's arrival procedure intentions;

(b) when joining the aerodrome traffic circuit, giving the aircraft's position in the circuit;

(c) when on the downwind leg, if applicable;

(d) when on final approach; and

(e) when clear of the surface on which the aircraft has landed.

So what really happened before you massage your stories to slam FSS?

I'd guess late down wind is not before entering the MF area but I suppose I don't fly in BC much.

[thatdaveguy]

BTW the only ATC CADOR I have ever gotten was from the High Level FSS. It was 0130 on a clear summer night and I was coming in VFR from Fort Mac after a very long day. I checked in with High Level 50 miles out and from then until I joined the circuit there was Not One other transmission on the MF frequency. Th FSS CADOR'd me because I called in on late downwind instead of entering the MF area . That did not do much to endear me to the FSS folks.....

You guys are misunderstanding the reference. He did call prior to entering the MF, the CARS simply says the call prior to entering the MF shall be a minimum of 5 minutes prior to entering the zone. You need not call when actually entering the zone.

(a) before entering the MF area and, where circumstances permit, shall do so at least five minutes before entering the area, giving the aircraft's position, altitude and estimated time of landing and the pilot-in-command's arrival procedure intentions;

[Beefitarian]

That sounds fair but he may have failed to provide,

estimated time of landing and the pilot-in-command's arrival procedure intentions;

when he checked in.

Tough to say. Maybe he wouldn't have got the CADOR if he didn't call them "dickwads".

[thatdaveguy]

That sounds fair but he may have failed to provide,

estimated time of landing and the pilot-in-command's arrival procedure intentions;

when he checked in.

Tough to say. Maybe he wouldn't have got the CADOR if he didn't call them "dickwads".

Oh yeah, that's true. If he checked in at 50 miles without providing intentions then showed up late downwind he deserved the write up!