From instructing to Georgian

[CS01]

FO's start at 28 and change. The pay rates go up by a certain percentage every January and July iirc, as well as every year since your start date. Yes, the pay sucks, but it is pretty comparable, and there is no bond. I get about $600 a month in perdiems. Airline passes with AC and star alliance members, jumpseat with Westjet, porter, transat, etc.

As for instructors, they don't hire many, maybe one every gs if things haven't changed. Multi time doesn't seem to be a factor. Seems like most are from Seneca though. Internal recommends help quite a bit.

[Magnetron]

did instructors leaving for georgian instruct on a multi or would georgian hire guys with all single engine instructing time?

I am most certain that the instructors that I know of going to ggn only had single engine instructing time. Although I wouldn't think anyone who is qualified and teaches multi, thus logging multi PIC, would go to ggn for FO position.

[HighT5]

... I wouldn't think anyone who is qualified and teaches multi, thus logging multi PIC, would go to ggn for FO position.

Logging PIC on a Seminole is better time than 1900 f/o?

Do general aviation multi instructors go direct captain on King Airs these days?

[Magnetron]

Logging PIC on a Seminole is better time than 1900 f/o?

Do general aviation multi instructors go direct captain on King Airs these days?

Who said it was a Seminole?
And no, I doubt it. My experience, the multi instructors I've had are old folks who have done far greater things and are now kicking it back with instructing.

But that's besides my point/opinion. To me and maybe others, multi PIC is multi PIC, if I could get it in a piston twin, so be it. If it's in a turbine, even better.
No offense meant to ggn but if it were a company with greater depth with regards to types of aircraft which I could eventually upgrade to by starting as an FO. Sure I'd go for it than always be instructing.

In any case, it's just my opinion. I just feel its a step backwards. Maybe you'd eventually go for an FO position after instructing, but with the multi PIC time, you have that extra advantage when it comes to upgrade time.

[HighT5]

I was using the Seminole as an example of light piston twin vs a 17,000lb turbine twin in a 704 operation.

Of course if the instructor is older and has already flown bigger and better and is instructing at the end of his career, then yes, why would he or she go f/o at GGN? That was a critical point you left out of your post.

But I'm still unsure of your point.."But that's besides my point/opinion. To me and maybe others, multi PIC is multi PIC, if I could get it in a piston twin, so be it. If it's in a turbine, even better."

Are AC, WJ, AT, SW, CJ, Jazz, Porter, SkyRegional taking piston-twin only guys now? NO instructor should stick to his Seminole teaching pic if working for a main canadian airline is his goal. And, you don't need any multi-pic time to upgrade to captain at a lot of companies. It's usually based on total time plus time on type. So that would not give you an extra advantage when it comes to upgrade time.

Companies like GGN wouldn't have to be considered a stepping stone if they paid better, had a pension, and offered similar lifestyles to 705 operators. But, understandably, that isn't always financially possible for smaller operators like them.

[Magnetron]

To clarify my point, then, I meant more of the hours you can log. I've seen so many ads with 500 multi Pic as a requirement. I assumed that if you had that, you're golden. or at least shinier than the other candidates...but obviously it's not just that.
My comment also ties into GGN being what it is right now. Perhaps I meant it that GGN not being as glamorous as it COULD be right now, perhaps slugging it out instructing multi for some hours and getting a greater chance at a better operator might be worth it.

[BTyyj]

I'm not seeing a figure that shows the starting pay is at 24k for f/o's and less than 60k tops for Capts. Captains top above 60 and f/o's start at 27 or 28.

My apologizes, you are correct. My point still remains the same though - the more experienced guys won't be staying around when there is better money offered elsewhere.

[Diadem]

My point still remains the same though - the more experienced guys won't be staying around when there is better money offered elsewhere.

That seems to be a major component of GGN's business model: rather than pay guys $100000/year and an exorbitant pension after they retire, don't bother trying to retain them. They have to pay for a PPC renewal annually anyway, so instead of higher wages they budget in the cost of an initial in place of a renewal every couple of years. The few thousand extra for the training is probably peanuts compared to what they would pay guys who'd been there for twenty years, and the pilots get to go fly shiny jets. Everybody wins. I mean, not the FOs making $28000/year, but FOs aren't really people anyway.

[Krimson]

The few thousand extra for the training is probably peanuts compared to what they would pay guys who'd been there for twenty years, and the pilots get to go fly shiny jets. Everybody wins. I mean, not the FOs making $28000/year, but FOs aren't really people anyway.

Everyone who is in it to make a buck wins. Everyone else looses. The potential of the company, the passengers, the pilots, all other (non-management) employees. And most of all, all of us. Not just the ones making $28,000/year; the rest of us making less than that working elsewhere, or making more than that but still underpaid for what we are doing. When one company is paying their pilots like garbage, the whole industry takes a hit. The average pay falls and other money hungry companies will follow suit. This is what happens when CEOs would like to line their own pockets instead of treat their staff well and advance the field where their money is coming from. Goes to the saying, everyone makes money off aviation except those of us in it - we love it too much.

[Cat Driver]

Goes to the saying, everyone makes money off aviation except those of us in it - we love it too much.

Exactly.

What I can not figure out is why you get paid anything, if missionary's are willing to work for nothing what can't pilots?

[BTyyj]

I can not figure out is why you get paid anything, if missionary's are willing to work for nothing what can't pilots?

That's because missionaries are provided with room and board

[Diadem]

And hot topless native girls on tropical islands. Come to think of it, what the hell am I doing as a pilot?

[trey kule]

Well Cat, those that take the missionary position tend to get screwed

I am surprised a bit at exactly what FO's think they are worth. On the one hand they admit they dont have experience, from which one might conclude that they either are unfit to fly this type of aircraft at this point, or will take more training, and put a heavier workload on the Captain/Instructor/Mentor....On the other hand they seem to feel they are worth far more, because I assume, they are licensed pilots...note, I did not say qualified.

I have made no bones about it in the past as to my feelings of the FO position being a training position...It really negates the whole crew concept. Kind of like logging FO time when you were a student pilot instead of dual.
And I think the FAA has also seen the light , and that TC soon will, after , of course, we have a few bump in, and some innocent people killed who thought they had a qualified crew up front.

So, if you are effectively a student pilot,,,$28k a year is not bad... If you had 1000 hours multi turbine PIC it would be a whole different story...And eventually you will see us get to that and the wages will rise..
In the meantime, companies that hire fresh new CPLs to save money are choosing the single pilot instructor Captain vs. and experienced crew....something the public should be made aware of if TC wont move on the issue.

[767]

Are there any new pilots out there that just want to fly and do a good job without considering their employer simply as a career step to put ink in the logbook so they can move on.?

At the interview I want to tell them the truth (commitment), but it seems like these days most companies expect to hear " yes, I will go to (major airline) if they call me tommrow" when asked that question. I dont think anyone is ready to believe when I say " I will stay with you for the next 2 years".

[X-Savior]

Air Georgian is now a 1 year bond required... due to the number of pilots that have been quickly moving up and on they need some sort of commitment. This bond is not a cash up front so it is not a big deal IMO.

[CS01]

There is no bond at Georgian. Not sure where you're coming up with that.

[X-Savior]

[CRJ-705]

so if its rare for georgian to hire instructors, what airlines do they normally hire guys from? Or what aircraft do they normally hire guys off of?

[X-Savior]

[single_swine_herder]

Oh wonderful ... so whoever joins as a Capt will have a whole batch of disgrutled F/Os that are out to stab him in the back for the slightest incorrect SOP call, or just generally be bitchy and snippy in the cockpit because they perceive that this new guy has "stolen their seat" to which they are rightfully entitled because they have a date of hire.

That happened to me when I was brought into an organization to shepherd the Single Otter around the sky for a regional carrier when they still operated floats. The guys thinking they were qualified had about 300 hours (or less) on the water after a basic 5 hour seaplane rating and a 1.1 start of season checkout for 2 years.

So I hope the new Captains get fitted for a bullet and knife-proof flack jacket to fly with. Oh ... and have somebody else go out and start your car in the morning to check for bombs connected to the ignition system.