Engine Roughness/Loss of Power

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Big Pistons Forever
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Engine Roughness/Loss of Power

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

In flying training engine problems are usually presented as binary. Engine runs--Engine doesn't run, which then leads into the forced approach exercise.

However the engine malfunctions that the average PPL is much more likely to actually encounter is a rough running engine and/or a loss of some engine power. What to do about this often does not get covered in a systematic way in flight training. This IMO, is particularly true during PPL training where students will not have a base of experience to draw on and need some guidance on how to deal with in air engine problems.

I recently helped redo the emergency checklist for a local flight school and I addressed this issue in the non memory recall section of the emergency checklist (C172). The intent is a "check" for the pilot to use if he/she encounters an engine problem to ensure they have not forgotten any actions. It goes as follows:

Engine Roughness/Reduction in Engine Power

-Carb heat.........................................Full On for at least 30 sec
-Engine gauges...................................Check
(Note if severe carb ice exists engine will initially run very rough until ice has cleared)

If problem persists

-Carb heat........................................Cold
-Mixture ...........................................Full rich then lean to max RPM

If problem persists

- Mags............................................Select right and left mag individually
(Note if engine roughness is more pronounced on one mag select the other mag or both, whichever gives smoothest operation)

----------------Land at nearest suitable airport------------------------

If problem persists

- Fuel selector.................................Left tank for 2 mins

If problem persists

- Fuel selector................................Right tank for 2 mins

---------------Land at nearest suitable airport-------------------------

In addition to to this I have emphasized the importance monitoring the engine instruments in flight. Instructors should periodically and without warning cover the oil temp/press gauges and make sure the students know where the needle is actually pointing. (In the green is not a good enough answer :roll: ).

Internal mechanical failures resulting in a total engine failure are the least likely cause of an engine failure but they do happen. The good news is there will almost always be some warning. Any internal misalignment or failure will almost always result in metal rubbing. This will cause a rapid rise in oil temperature with the oil temp gauge pegging at its maximum value. A dramatic drop in oil pressure will quickly follow. Any engine showing these signs should be presumed to be in danger of imminent total failure and appropriate actions to land ASAP should be taken. The only caveat is an open circuit in the oil temp wiring will cause the oil temp needle to peg at the highest temp. However in this case the oil pressure will be normal so it is likely just the gauge. However a landing at the nearest suitable airport would be prudent

The oil temp gauge failing is more likely then the engine actually suffering a catastrophic internal failure. It would be a pity if a student on seeing a failed gauge, wrote off an airplane on an unnecessary precautionary landing, an event I know has happened. If the oil pressure is normal there is essentially no way you can have an above redline oil temp. Obviously you still land at the nearest suitable airport though.

This does beg the question of what is "normal" oil pressure and temperature. Another area that usually isn't addressed in flight training. Oil temp and oil pressure effect each other. If you have just started your engine on a cold morning it would be normal to have the oil pressure every high, probably close to the upper redline limit with the oil temp at the bottom of the gauge. As the oil warms up the oil pressure will slowly reduce to a more normal mid gauge (ie 75 ish PSI) indication. However if you restart the engine after a short break on a 30 C day, you will see a high oil temp and the oil pressure will probably be in the yellow arc at low RPMs. Therefore a low oil press and/or high oil temp at start up on a cold day; or very low oil temp and/or high oil pressure after a short shut down on a hot day should be of concern.

A related issue is how "partial" is your partial power loss. As an initial guideline to new pilots I tell them for the C 172 a loss of RPM to below 1900 should be treated as an "engine failure" and a planned controlled forced approach should be carried out using what power is available to help control the aircraft. Above 1900 RPM level flight can be maintained, the aircraft can be manoevered and now some pilot decision making is required as to the best course of action and will obviously be situationally dependent.
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cptn2016
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Re: Engine Roughness/Loss of Power

Post by cptn2016 »

I love this site, it's like having a room full of instructors & professionals at your disposal, and I don't even have to buy anyone lunch!

Would it be wise, as one of the first items, to increase your throttle? If you're only getting partial power from your engine, wouldn't you want to try to maximize that by any means possible? I have a vague memory of reading a story somewhere about an engine failure (ended well, thankfully), and during testing on the ground later on it was discovered that if he had just tried to adjust his throttle setting (can't remember if it was increase or decrease), the engine would have restarted. Unfortunately I don't quite remember the explanation as to why.

And I'm curious about the "full rich" if the problem persists. I assume that means only if you're not at a high altitude...wouldn't that cause a good engine to quit, let alone a rough-running one?

A ton of good advice here, much appreciated!
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Engine Roughness/Loss of Power

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

cptn2016 wrote:I love this site, it's like having a room full of instructors & professionals at your disposal, and I don't even have to buy anyone lunch!

Would it be wise, as one of the first items, to increase your throttle? If you're only getting partial power from your engine, wouldn't you want to try to maximize that by any means possible? I have a vague memory of reading a story somewhere about an engine failure (ended well, thankfully), and during testing on the ground later on it was discovered that if he had just tried to adjust his throttle setting (can't remember if it was increase or decrease), the engine would have restarted. Unfortunately I don't quite remember the explanation as to why.

And I'm curious about the "full rich" if the problem persists. I assume that means only if you're not at a high altitude...wouldn't that cause a good engine to quit, let alone a rough-running one?

A ton of good advice here, much appreciated!
I didn't address the issue of throttle position because the first natural reaction when the power drops is to push in the throttle. But you point is a good one as some failure modes, primarily fuel related will, mean that the engine will only run at certain throttle settings, so trying a series of different throttle setting is worth a try as you may find a throttle position that restores some or even all of the engine power. Certainly any indication of internal engine failures like sudden increases in oil temp and or drop in oil pressure or significant unusual noises should lead you to immediately consider a lower power setting as well as a full rich mixture and full open cowl flaps if fitted, all of which will make things easier for the engine.

The idea of starting at full rich as a way to troubleshoot sudden engine roughness is because the mixture may be too lean. The best way to resolve any ambiguity is to go to full rich and then lean to maximum RPM.
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Re: Engine Roughness/Loss of Power

Post by Colonel Sanders »

One thing worth trying is a squirt of primer. It might make things better or worse.

Low-wing and fuel-injected aircraft will generally have an inline fuel pump which is a good idea to flick on, when you experience a power loss.

The hand-primer is a poor man's boost pump!

Engines aren't really very complicated. If all the internal bits are still doing the right thing at the right time, it's a matter of getting air and fuel in, having a spark, and being able to get the hot gas out.

If the air or fuel is blocked from going in - or out, due to plugged exhaust - the engine isn't going to run very well. It's just an air pump, really.
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iflyforpie
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Re: Engine Roughness/Loss of Power

Post by iflyforpie »

The thing about engine failures is no two are alike. I think that 'the' engine failure check list should be just a list of items to check as applicable. Time, training, and experience will prioritize actions like going for carb heat on a moist day or a fuel selector or boost pump if the engine starts surging--perhaps after an 'oh crap' moment.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Engine Roughness/Loss of Power

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

iflyforpie wrote:The thing about engine failures is no two are alike. I think that 'the' engine failure check list should be just a list of items to check as applicable. Time, training, and experience will prioritize actions like going for carb heat on a moist day or a fuel selector or boost pump if the engine starts surging--perhaps after an 'oh crap' moment.
True but when you are a brand new PPL you won't have a lot of experience and your training will be likely be focused on passing the flight test, which only test the actions for the least likely engine malfunction scenario a PPL will likely experience, the total and sudden failure of the engine with no warning.....
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Last edited by Big Pistons Forever on Fri May 18, 2012 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
trey kule
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Re: Engine Roughness/Loss of Power

Post by trey kule »

For what its worth, I am not a big fan of turning mags off and on....turn the good one off, and things will start to quiet down..Turn it back on and if the throttle was not retarded you might get a surprise.

The question is what will be accomplished by this procedures?

I will leave the answer to the expersts
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Re: Engine Roughness/Loss of Power

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

trey kule wrote:For what its worth, I am not a big fan of turning mags off and on....turn the good one off, and things will start to quiet down..Turn it back on and if the throttle was not retarded you might get a surprise.

The question is what will be accomplished by this procedures?

I will leave the answer to the expersts
If you are flying behind a large radial then yes you should never turn off a mag in flight. However if you are flying in an airplane with a non turbo charged horizontally opposed piston engine I see no reason why switching to one mag to diagnose plug/lead/mag problems is a bad idea. I have personally had several instances of lead fouled plugs causing the engine to run rough and diagnosed the problem this way. I also had one instance when the engine suddenly lost a bunch of power and suddenly was extremely rough. switching the mag to the left position and suddenly the engine was running fine. An internal mag failure had massively advanced the spark for half the plugs and the engine sure didn't like that.

TK

You seem to have issues with what I am saying so instead of being coy why don't you just come out and say what you think I have got wrong. I am always ready to listen to other points of view but frankly statements like " I will leave the answer to the experts" is IMO just you being a jerk.....
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trey kule
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Re: Engine Roughness/Loss of Power

Post by trey kule »

At the risk of thread drift,but to clarify my post.. I am not an expert when it comes to piston engines. Dont fly them anymore, and except for a couple of exceptions, (which were, in fact radials) have not in many years. I have forgotten so much that I expect I would need some serious dual and review of technical info to get back up to speed.So my comment was exactly as it stated. I defer to those who are experts... I am sorry you felt I was being a jerk, but I understand as I have seen certain posters who use self immolation in a condescending way.

My initial comment was made because many years ago I had a shaft in a mag break. In the middle of nowhere, and I spent a very uncomflortable hour getting to an airport( or being over any decent place to put down) When the AME looked at it his first question was did I do a mag check...I said no, controlling the plane initially was an issue, and then once I got it under control and the temps and pressures were all good, I touched nothing. He mentioned that was a good thing as it is never a good idea if you think you may have a mag problem to start fiddling with them...Maybe he was wrong...I just never forgot the lesson.

And now, at the risk of being branded as coy and offending you, I will leave it to the experts who know far more about piston engines than I do.
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Post by Beefitarian »

I on the other hand am a fan of fiddling with the mags, however when I do it, I'm not turning them off for such a long time that, I get fuel into the exhaust for one of those cool back fires I've heard so much about but never heard in person. In flight that might happen much quicker than during the final check at 800 rpm.

I have to say in the interest of making the engine run significantly better I would likely try to isolate the good mag.

In the case Trey experienced it would be something that would not help. I would select the good mag and there would be no change as the bad one is allready dead. When I select the bad one the engine stops because that mag is dead. Hopefully the engine starts again when I return to the good mag.

So even though I'd probably check them, I think in that case Trey and the AME are right and it's better not to. I'm just the kind of personality that would need to try to fix things. Unless I'm really close to an airport, then I'm going to play with the mags on the ground after I land.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Engine Roughness/Loss of Power

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

TK

Thank you for the courtesy of a polite reply to my post that on reflection was more hostile then it needed to be.

Re: turning the mags off in flight. I think this is one of the many areas in aviation where there will never be a single "right" answer. However for the target audience for which the checklist was meant to apply, low hour pilots flying C 172's, I think carefully switching to each mag in flight to diagnose a failed or fouled plug as the cause of engine roughness is a reasonable course of action. But at the end of the day it is up to the PIC to decide whether they are comfortable with this course of action.

To anyone reading this. My advice is worth exactly what you paid for it. It is meant to share some of my experiences and ideas and provide food for thought. It will never be the only or probably the best advice but if it helps any reader consolidate in their own mind how they should be doing something then I will have achieved the aim of why I post on the avcanada training forum
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Post by Beefitarian »

Big Pistons Forever wrote:I think this is one of the many areas in aviation where there will never be a single "right" answer.
True, it's what makes discussions like this so valuable. They help us think about that simple thing we might have missed that could make the engine run better to land safer someday.
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Re: Engine Roughness/Loss of Power

Post by Colonel Sanders »

Re: turning the mags off in flight. I think this is one of the many areas in aviation where there will never be a single "right" answer
+1

Some AME's maintain this as a hard and fast rule, but I disagree because of the case where a magneto is Behaving Badly (tm) and firing at the wrong time. It's an unusual failure mode, but not an impossible one!
My advice is worth exactly what you paid for it
:wink:
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Post by Beefitarian »

I certaianly agree with you here.
Colonel Sanders wrote:
If the air or fuel is blocked from going in - or out, due to plugged exhaust - the engine isn't going to run very well. It's just an air pump, really.
This is a pretty good analogy. I think you should add it runs on fire.

We need fuel, oxygen (air) and spark to make fire.
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