What do you think is going to happen to:

[Tom H]

The Aviation Industry in the Greater Edmonton Region?

I am curious to hear what the thoughts of those in the industry are, both pilots and ATC, AMEs ground personnel.

While no date has been set for the final runway closure it certainly appears that other than the airlines industry and even private aviation is moving away from the region.

Am I wrong?

Thoughts on what could be done to retain aviation without YXD?

Thoughts in general?

Tom

[MrWings]

I think there will always be a demand for aviation in the Edmonton capital region.

As far as flight training, the plan is to move it to Villeneuve.

There should be no impact on ATC at YEG.

Both of these locations are outside of Edmonton.

YXD will be replaced by high rises and big box stores which they say will bring in more tax revenue. But I'm not convinced that Wal-Mart jobs are more desireable than a highly trained specialized workers.

People in your city need something to do first. Aviation is an industry. Retail stores are there to give industry people somewhere to spend their money. If industry is gone, why do you need retail?

[azimuthaviation]

Three flight schools won't be able to operate at ZVL so one of edmontons flight schools will probably go under. Likewise all the maintenance shops won't all be able to move. GA and flight training will be hit the hardest. The only maintenance schools have closed so no chance of locally trained personnel, that's thanks to Alberta Learning foreseeing little need go those skills in nortern Ab, probably a not incorrect assumption. My hope is a private registered airport on Enoch with one runway 6000 feet with ILS and GPS approach. Presell ownership shares to fund construction and finance the operation with landing fees and hangar rental. Contract Navcanada to run an fss and the navaids. As soon as someone organises it ill be the first to invest.

[mbav8r]

There's two general aviation looking hangers being built at YEG, by the threshold of 30. There's a STARS sign on one, but if I remember correctly it wasn't centered on the building, so it would seem to me they've rented that side.

[Tom H]

Thanks for the replies everyone

I think there will always be a demand for aviation in the Edmonton capital region.

I agree, but there is no where for private, light, medium GA to go right now.

Development at Villeneuve is insignificant, I would guess EIA is expecting companies to lease the land and develop themselves (but I realize most do not have that kind of capitalization/credit especially small AME ops etc plus other issues).

Cooking Lake is a great little airport (and historic site!) but with a 3000' runway and small footprint it is limited in what it can be, other than a super private and light GA airport.

The cost of being at Edmonton International and knowing full well that private, light and even medium GA to an extent do not integrate well at an international airport makes it a poor choice.

Other airports such as Westlock and Josephburg are just too far out and too small to be functional as an option.

So I can understand why we are seeing a once proud industry sliding away...but with the options in place what can be done to stem the tide?

People in your city need something to do first. Aviation is an industry. Retail stores are there to give industry people somewhere to spend their money. If industry is gone, why do you need retail?

I agree completely, but most have been snowed.

Three flight schools won't be able to operate at ZVL so one of edmontons flight schools will probably go under. Likewise all the maintenance shops won't all be able to move. GA and flight training will be hit the hardest.

Agree completely

The only maintenance schools have closed so no chance of locally trained personnel, that's thanks to Alberta Learning foreseeing little need

Agree but, the Alberta Aviation Museum is trying to relaunch the Avionic training in the near future and other initiatives to keep some training in Northern Alberta.

My hope is a private registered airport on Enoch with one runway 6000 feet with ILS and GPS approach. Presell ownership shares to fund construction and finance the operation with landing fees and hangar rental. Contract Navcanada to run an fss and the navaids. As soon as someone organises it ill be the first to invest.

But is the interest really there?

I've been part of a number of discussions on creating a facility fresh (not Enoch) 6000', ILS with hangar/business lots to be sold (not leased) and the up front people are telling me they are getting minimal interest.

Am I being misinformed?

Is a demand there? Or is it too late to try and retain the industry here?

Tom

[ScudRunner]

I think YEG is where most maintenance operations will move to in the end, as noted above there are new buildings/hangers and infrastructure being contructed. Flight training well lets be honest its a declining industry and it will be a dogfight out of Villenueve.

Just to mix it up a bit I am really surprised no one has brought this up before but what about CFB Namao? Its dam close to downtown I betcha the government might just be interested in generating some revenue off that land and sign some long term leases. Sure its used by the military for fling wing training etc, but even the smaller runways appears to be 5000-6000 feet long. The long runway could easily deisplace the threshold and still have 7 or 8 thousand feet available even with those buildings at the end. If you look at CFB Comox on the island and even Cold Lake its not quite common place for civilian aircraft to operate in and out of those airports. I doubt it would take much infrastructure improvement and civilian and military operations could be easily separated. Just a thought call your local MP

[Tom H]

.

I think YEG is where most maintenance operations will move to in the end, as noted above there are new buildings/hangers and infrastructure being contructed.

For heavier turbine I agree, but for light to medium the cost of doing business seems to be driving, those I have talked to, down to Calgary Springbank and Red Deer. ($33.00 vs $11.00per sq ft for Canadian Helicopters according to a recent Edmonton Journal article)

There needs to be an option in the Greater Edmonton region or the private, light and medium GA and related industries are in trouble.

Flight training well lets be honest its a declining industry and it will be a dogfight out of Villenueve.

Just my 2bits but, seems some areas are strong others declining but if all the puff and articles are right the demand will increase.

Just to mix it up a bit I am really surprised no one has brought this up before but what about CFB Namao?

I have met with Base, Provincial officials talked to MP and there was interest, but once discussions started it went secret squirrel and I have no idea where the discussions have gone.



Namao is ideal, 03/21 (the smaller cross runway) is in good condition, 6700' by 150'. Runway lights need replaced as they have been removed. Main taxi way has no issues and the southeast end of the big one could also be used as a taxiway.

All the infrastructure such as building sites, main access roadways, water, power, sewer are there and it would be possible.

Very fast to Royal Alexandria Hospital, Sturgeon General Hospital and now with the Henday even the Misericordia Hospital (well less than 20 mins if I remember from google maps and my drives)

Even the business model would work.

It has gone way above my pay grade so who knows what will happen in the end.

But there has to be a way to fix things in the region and make them work.

My opinion and what I know anyways

Tom

[just curious]

Edmonton has become a transit stop on the way to somewhere else. When we flew into the Muni, we left loaded to the gunnels with groceries booze and junk you couldn't get up north. If we had a weekend we would fly down and make the WEM very happy.

The airport authority screwed over both Northerners and aviation both. Now if I have to stay in YEG's vicinity for a night, we stay in Leduc, and avoid the airport restaurants like the plague that they are.

Now that I think about it, the airport authority still gives WestJet, Cdn North, and First Air the finger, with Air Canada getting the nice part of the terminal, and everyone else the cramped antiseptic 1960's terminal.

In the end, the city council and the airport authority will have effectively nuked 1000 skilled jobs to provide 2000 McJobs.

A pox on both their houses.

[Tom H]

Just curious

Edmonton has become a transit stop on the way to somewhere else. When we flew into the Muni, we left loaded to the gunnels with groceries booze and junk you couldn't get up north. If we had a weekend we would fly down and make the WEM very happy.

Guess that's one of the reasons why I'm trying to get thoughts on how to do something to solve the problem others have created.

Northern Alberta needs to keep a strong aviation base, both historical, private and light/medium GA and that's just not gonna happen unless someone tries to do so something to fix it.

The Air Ambulance access problem has to be fixed.
Lack of affordable facilities has to be fixed
Lack of training has to be fixed

For aviation anywhere to move forward and move back into where it should be it needs a place where it can be publicly accessible, public and consumer friendly as well as aviation business (both flying and ground based) friendly/affordable.

The question becomes...how?

Would there be both the industry support and business interest in a new private airport operation with 6,000' and an ILS as well as within less than 20-30minutes access to Edmonton?

Like you I'm just curious (lol couldn't resist)

Tom

[azimuthaviation]

If an avionics school was set up at the museum the tuition would be prohibitively expensive without Alberta learnings funding. That's even if they accredit it. Then comes tc approval as an ato. I'm a bit pessimistic on that one.

When Nait closed the pilot program there was talk about setting up a two year diploma program at efc.

[azimuthaviation]

Enoch is the best place to build a private airport. It's on the edge of the west end which is rich in amenities for business travel: shopping hotels conference centres quick travel, the mall, river Cree resort... I don't think buying up farmland is a good option. Revenue generating land isn't cheap, especially compared to reserve land unused. Plus the runway would be oriented 30/12 farms are true north n south, how many parcels would need to be bought to accomodate it? And its still going to be out in the boonies accessible by some gravel farm roads

[1000 HP]

I've stopped into the City Center several times. It's very handy. For me it's a three hour drive to Edmonton, or 50 minute flight. My heart specialist was a very convenient 15 minute walk from the airport. (It turned out good). My new vaccination specialist is also right near by. I can't remember paying a landing fee but maybe that's because I filled up at the Esso every time.

CYEG is out of the way for me. Last time I was in there to pick up the kids, I got a $77 bill in the mail. I believe they even charged me a departing passenger fee or something. The ATC treated me like I was a pest and didn't like my taxi speed. Seems I was holding them up. I tried to accommodate but my gear has rubber pucks and does not like big bumps. Plus I had to hold it back to avoid becoming airborn. If they lowered their fees for General Aviation to a reasonable level, they might attract some people. But it's still a bit of a hike into town.

Something closer to West Edmonton would be good, because then my wife wouldn't mind jumping in with me a bit.

And I've got to agree, that we don't need any more McJobs. High tech, manufacturing, etc are the way to go. Maybe competing in the world market is a good idea? It seems like we are de-volving...

[Tom H]

If an avionics school was set up at the museum the tuition would be prohibitively expensive without Alberta learnings funding. That's even if they accredit it. Then comes tc approval as an ato. I'm a bit pessimistic on that one.

When Nait closed the pilot program there was talk about setting up a two year diploma program at efc.

azimuthaviaton

To be up front, I am the Executive Director of the Alberta Aviation Museum.

Both myself and the museum board consider it important to keep the door open to every piece of aviation related education and training that we can.

My Education Director originally brought the Avionics program on line at NAIT and knows the process to get the approvals from all needed bodies, including Alberta Learing...we have already started and NAIT has been very helpful in getting us underway.

We are in the fortunate position of having the right equipment and the right people in place to make it happen. What we do not have is the room (not just for this but everything as we are absolutely out of space for all operations) but we are negotiating with the City of Edmonton to hopefully resolve that.

Once we have the room the numbers show that the program costs should be about the same as NAITs and with a bias to medium GA style aircraft through heavies, such as the 737 (which we have in the collection), there is a demand.

So right now its a matter of waiting till we can solve the space issue.

Tom

[Tom H]

Enoch is the best place to build a private airport. It's on the edge of the west end which is rich in amenities for business travel: shopping hotels conference centres quick travel, the mall, river Cree resort... I don't think buying up farmland is a good option. Revenue generating land isn't cheap, especially compared to reserve land unused. Plus the runway would be oriented 30/12 farms are true north n south, how many parcels would need to be bought to accomodate it? And its still going to be out in the boonies accessible by some gravel farm roads

Enoch is a good option, but you are back to leased land and that is something the people I have been talking to wish to avoid for a number or reasons.

There are other locations, slightly farther out but not much, that are viable and on main road access.

[Tom H]

And I've got to agree, that we don't need any more McJobs. High tech, manufacturing, etc are the way to go.

Exactly why I have been looking at options on how to move things forward and the why the museum offers the programs it does and has been working with the Schools Aerospace Challenge out of the UK.

Schools Aerospace Challenge out of the UK is a good example of programs that are needed to get young people interested and involved in aviation at all levels. The museum received an invitation to send the first Canadian Team and while there is nothing in it for the museum we have worked with an air cadet squadron to create a team (currently in training), handle the organization and are doing the fund rasing to cover the costs of transport and tuition to get the team to Cranfield UK for the program.

One of the things that pushing aviation into the secure international airports and out into areas the public doesn't see is that kids are never exposed to it (except as people tubes). So for kids it's tough to get interested in what you can't see and can't access.

What I have seen and the museum has seen is with our K-12 programs (especially the Grade 6 program) is when they are they have a huge interest and dive right in. To meet the demand we have added summer camps for 7-11 and 12-15 year olds.

In addition we have Young Eagle Days and work with the Edmonton COPA chapter on COPA for Kids and will continue to till the runway is closed.

Bringing in visiting aircraft especially vintage like the P-51, Harvards, B-25, B-17, Lancaster and Sabre have been great ways to get all ages excited.

I hope we (the museum, enthusiasts, aviation private and industry) find a way to keep things growing.

The question is how, which is why I thought looking for input here was a good idea.

Tom

[Beefitarian]

The question is how,

Money. You get enough of it and you can tear down part of Edmonton and build a new muni or keep the old one.

That's why they are shutting it down. They don't care about airplanes, medivacs, convenience or history for you poor people. Money, money, money bring that and you can do whatever you want.

I like Edmonton city center and feel fortunate to have been able to have landed there in the past but I'm poor so I could offer suggestions but not the money needed to keep aviation alive in Edmonton.

Enjoy it while they let us in north America. I don't want to start or feed conspiracy theories but it certainly feels like the haves don't want us 99%ers to fly around. Everything airplane gets more restricted as time goes on.

[Tom H]

Beefitarian

Money. You get enough of it and you can tear down part of Edmonton and build a new muni or keep the old one.

That's why they are shutting it down. They don't care about airplanes, medivacs, convenience or history for you poor people. Money, money, money bring that and you can do whatever you want.

Can't disagree but having lived through this mess, for lack of a better public term, most of the vocal people do not value or understand aviation as a whole beyond getting on an airline.

Add in the kool aid that has been fed to them and it magnifies the problem. I'd go on but you can see it is a bigger problem than just the money (ideology, politics, power, egos and ignorance to name a few).

Which leads to your second comment

Enjoy it while they let us in north America. I don't want to start or feed conspiracy theories but it certainly feels like the haves don't want us 99%ers to fly around. Everything airplane gets more restricted as time goes on.

Again I agree and the aviation world needs to do things to come together and counter it, but to the largest extent we don't.

Guess thats why I feel a need to help find a way to fix the Edmonton mess before it goes farther.

[tailgunner]

Edmonton Airports needs to build a 5000 foot parallel 12-30 on the north side of YEG. It could run close to the threshold of 20' and out towards highway 19. They could then run right hand circuits all day without conflicting the original 12-30. If they were forward thinking they could develop and sell GA style hangars and condo's.....by having more AC based there, and having more operations ,people's perception of YEG would change dramatically for the better. Who knows, there may even be secondary development to service and support the increasing number of people and businesses that frequent the airport....

[1000 HP]

Why don't we all get together and buy some land? Then it's not leased. Make it a kind of air-park with a housing side and commercial sector? I could save some money on hanger rental by parking the airplane in my garage. My wife and I want to relocate to Edmonton anyways. Any rich fellows out there that could start a developement? I'd buy a house with an attached hanger for under $500,000 but any more and it's un-affordable (and must have titled lots)

Just a thought. I heard there was an airpark near Edmonton already but I don't know the area well. I'm from further east.

[azimuthaviation]

Not to be a naysayer but I don't see the feasibility of an avionics college at the museum. An accredited post secondary institute requires people to liase with Alberta learning, process applications and student loans, IT support, student services, admin staff... That will require at least three or four full time support staff in addition to instructor staff. That can't be paid for with 16-20 student's tuitions. NAIT already had the logistics in place that's why it could have worked there. Plus Alberta learning approved NAIT to shut the .program despite our campaign to retain it. I doubt they would turn around now and decide WTO fund a beware more expensive incarnation

[azimuthaviation]

Newer not beware..

[azimuthaviation]

I think Enoch is the best. Is it better to own rather than lease? Well if you "buy" the bank will own it for the first 25 years anyways, so the power oft ownership is in their hands. Secondly private ownership isn't respected in this country. Buy public or even private land fuel queen may at any point throw you off if your taxes aren't paid, if theft find oil or gas or molebdynum under it, if the cariboo need it to migrate across. The muni isn't even shuttered and seems like a perfect example to learpn from.

[Tom H]

Not to be a naysayer but I don't see the feasibility of an avionics college at the museum. An accredited post secondary institute requires people to liase with Alberta learning, process applications and student loans, IT support, student services, admin staff... That will require at least three or four full time support staff in addition to instructor staff. That can't be paid for with 16-20 student's tuitions. NAIT already had the logistics in place that's why it could have worked there. Plus Alberta learning approved NAIT to shut the .program despite our campaign to retain it. I doubt they would turn around now and decide WTO fund a beware more expensive incarnation

The proof is when we are ready to launch...which has to have the space problem dealt with first.

But the numbers work and the anticipated enrollment from research within the catch zone and commitments from outside Alberta indicate demand for enrollment will far exceed 16-20 per semester.

We are also well aware of all the logistical requirements including student financing, housing, transportation and other issues, but appreciate the concern.

Please remember NAIT requested the program shut down, Alberta Learning approved it.

2 years of research shows the demand exists.

Thanks for the thoughts

That said I don't get this...

Newer not beware..

[Tom H]

I think Enoch is the best. Is it better to own rather than lease? Well if you "buy" the bank will own it for the first 25 years anyways, so the power oft ownership is in their hands. Secondly private ownership isn't respected in this country. Buy public or even private land fuel queen may at any point throw you off if your taxes aren't paid, if theft find oil or gas or molebdynum under it, if the cariboo need it to migrate across. The muni isn't even shuttered and seems like a perfect example to learpn from.

The muni isn't even shuttered and seems like a perfect example to learpn from.

I guess that's why those I have been talking to won't consider leased land.

The Bank may own, but if you are properly servicing the debt they leave you alone.
If you are paying your taxes, you're not getting bothered.
If oil/minerals are found you get compensated and chances are they will work with you not through you as I have seen with many oil access leases.

Not much chance of Caribou within 1/2 of Edmonton.

I appreciate your point that the Enoch site has many advantages, but investors want titles.

At this point it's what would qualify as coffee talk at best...but you have to start somewhere.

Tom

[Tom H]

Why don't we all get together and buy some land? Then it's not leased. Make it a kind of air-park with a housing side and commercial sector? I could save some money on hanger rental by parking the airplane in my garage. My wife and I want to relocate to Edmonton anyways. Any rich fellows out there that could start a developement? I'd buy a house with an attached hanger for under $500,000 but any more and it's un-affordable (and must have titled lots)

Just a thought. I heard there was an airpark near Edmonton already but I don't know the area well. I'm from further east.

You comments match many that myself and others have been getting. Which is why I am asking for thoughts now.

Wetaskwin has a pretty neat airpark that I understand is near sold out.
Westlock similar
Camrose is redoing their master plan

Seems to be a concept that could work well.