ACPA off to arbitration

[teacher]

I guess that's it good try boys and girls good luck on the next phase.

http://m.ctv.ca/topstories/20120519/air ... 20519.html

[jazzbeat]

Wow now the summer is going to be ugly.... If I was westjet I would be looking at leasing like 100 widebodies.... No intelligent customer will want to book AC anymore....

[whiteguy]

Wow now the summer is going to be ugly.... If I was westjet I would be looking at leasing like 100 widebodies.... No intelligent customer will want to book AC anymore....

Why is it going to get ugly?


Now a contract gets imposed on the company and the pilots by the arbitrator. Whether its the companies proposal or ACPAs is to be seen. Either way, it's done for a few years at least.

[CanadianEh]

Wow now the summer is going to be ugly.... If I was westjet I would be looking at leasing like 100 widebodies.... No intelligent customer will want to book AC anymore....

Why is it going to get ugly?


Now a contract gets imposed on the company and the pilots by the arbitrator. Whether its the companies proposal or ACPAs is to be seen. Either way, it's done for a few years at least.

It's going to get more ugly because there will probably be more unexpected retirements, work to rule and in general less desire for pilots to go above and beyond for a company that takes it for granted.

[vortac]

That's ok. They'll just hire more pilots for 38k a year. Everyone's still lining up, plus probably about 150 PFO'd pilots hoping for another shot at an interview. Upset old timer problem fixed.

[Inverted2]

That's ok. They'll just hire more pilots for 38k a year. Everyone's still lining up, plus probably about 150 PFO'd pilots hoping for another shot at an interview. Upset old timer problem fixed.

I'm going to apply just so I can tell them to shove their 38k up their ass!

[vic777]

I'm going to apply just so I can tell them to shove their 38k up their ass!

WRONG! Get a free EA32 etc. Type Rating first!

[Mig29]

yeah...heard it on the radio this afternoon as well....it's a bummer for sure that things didn't/couldn't have worked out with a positive outcome this weekend.

Too bad......I'm still hoping for some positive to come from all of this. I'm sick and tired of doom and gloom lately..

[CanadianEh]

I'm going to apply just so I can tell them to shove their 38k up their ass!

WRONG! Get a free EA32 etc. Type Rating first!

Bingo. You should see the number of EMJ FOs on LOA.

[yycflyguy]

I'm going to apply just so I can tell them to shove their 38k up their ass!

WRONG! Get a free EA32 etc. Type Rating first!

Bingo. You should see the number of EMJ FOs on LOA.

Those leaves were granted years ago. They are so short staffed right now that nobody is getting a SLOA. Hiring can't keep up, training can't keep up.

[genetic jack hammer]

My $0.02 but the arbitrator's decision could be a win-win for the company. If the arbitrator's decision favors the company, ACPA is locked into a binding agreement and have to live with this contract for the length of it's course. If the arbitrator's decision favors the pilot's, company can just go ahead and file for CCAA the next days and now everything is on the table, all bets are off.

[Rockie]

My $0.02 but the arbitrator's decision could be a win-win for the company. If the arbitrator's decision favors the company, ACPA is locked into a binding agreement and have to live with this contract for the length of it's course. If the arbitrator's decision favors the pilot's, company can just go ahead and file for CCAA the next days and now everything is on the table, all bets are off.

The arbitrator's decision WILL be the company offer. You would have to be willingly blind to not see that the fix has been in with this government from the outset. "Arm's length" for them means their hands are still around the arbitrator's throat, and if Stanley ever wants to see another arbitrator gig he knows which way he will have to rule.

Once that ruling is in Rovinescu will immediately begin moving aircraft out of Air Canada into another company. My bet is Sky Regional as sources say they've been working on 320 and 767 operating manuals for several months now. It is the beginning of the end for Air Canada and its employees.

[Mig29]

If that is true, as you said its coming from 'unknown' sources, then I have to wonder what is a better option for ACPA. Small loss and fight for another day in 4 years or a major blow with irreversible consequences?

What I mean is that if AC wants ERJ outsourced to Tier 2 carrier(s) and will preserve the A320/767 fleet as part of mainline, would this not be a better option then what you have predicted once arbitrator rules in favor of management?

I know that we (collectively) ultimately lose every time an aircraft type goes to a lower tier operator, but to me it's a better option then not having any control anymore as to what and where you fly....

And I have to wonder why no one from the higher 'gods' on both sides of the table is not willing to say what the stumbling block was during these negotiations was? I hate all this secrecy and confidentiality because it leaves us pilots in the dark from knowing who really was pulling against the potential deal. So then we come here and pathetically speculate on what was said and who said it...

[Rockie]

Personal opinion of course based on observation, but when the TA1 coup got stopped the company stopped negotiating. Now they will accept nothing less than our scope gone...period. There's only one possible reason why they want that and it doesn't take an MBA to connect the dots over the last ten years.

We also have a federal government hostile to any organized labour group with the affrontery to demand anything more than minimum wage that Rovinescu KNOWS has his back. To the Conservatives any McJob is a bonus for everybody but them and the corporate elite, and they wholeheartedly approve of our jobs going from us to cheaper labour.

[ilovelamp]

Personal opinion of course based on observation, but when the TA1 coup got stopped the company stopped negotiating. Now they will accept nothing less than our scope gone...period. There's only one possible reason why they want that and it doesn't take an MBA to connect the dots over the last ten years.

We also have a federal government hostile to any organized labour group with the affrontery to demand anything more than minimum wage that Rovinescu KNOWS has his back. To the Conservatives any McJob is a bonus for everybody but them and the corporate elite, and they wholeheartedly approve of our jobs going from us to cheaper labour.

Pardon my ignorance but scope means AC pilots have to fly AC aircraft and without it they can get rid of planes to other companies?

Will there be layoffs? Pay cuts? Sorry for all the questions Im just trying to understand this a bit better. I am a potential and prospective new hire but not only that, I am a pilot in Canada.. so either way what happens at AC will probably effect me.

[loopa]

That's ok. They'll just hire more pilots for 38k a year. Everyone's still lining up, plus probably about 150 PFO'd pilots hoping for another shot at an interview. Upset old timer problem fixed.

So true.

Although I must say, I know 6 guys now in the CMA/NCA/SUNWEST type of flying who have all PFOd ACA in the last 3 months when either given an interview or ground school date. Good for them! All of them say because "management is toxic." They are more excited to take a pay cut and go to WestJet Regional than they are taking a pay cut to go to Air Canada mainline!

So perhaps the industry is starting to finally get a sense of what AC is about and perhaps how it's not the best gig that it was sought out to be since flight training days?

There's still a few guys on these board that think it's the best international flying gig in the world. Wonder what all of those people will be saying when their pensions are thrown out of the equation - considering these being the high time individuals at AC.

Saw the other day, UAE captain start salary is in the vicinity of 42k/mo? AC start salary is 42k/yr? My wtf flag is raised so high I can't see it any more. Money doesn't buy happiness is true, but neither does a gross retirement.

[Plim Sole]

Heard SR had its A320 application turned down by TC. Which I assume means no 767 for them either.

[Norwegianwood]

Saw the other day, UAE captain start salary is in the vicinity of 42k/mo? AC start salary is 42k/yr? My wtf flag is raised so high I can't see it any more. Money doesn't buy happiness is true, but neither does a gross retirement.

What!!! $504,000 a year. Where do I sign up??????

[Rockie]

If Air Canada wants Skyregional to get an operating certificate to fly anything they'll get it. The Transport Canada inspector that stands in the way would be doing grievous harm to their career prospects in government service.

[Plim Sole]

Then why has it been turned down?
I think you might need to ease up on the conspiracy theory crack pipe!

[Rockie]

I guess you don't understand the political realities of this situation. Transport Canada is the regulator, but the reality is TC personnel are the tail and Air Canada is the big vicious dog especially with this government. There was recently a TC POI crushed under the bootheel of Air Canada's influence with the government, who you will be shocked to hear are in charge of the civil service.

It isn't a conspiracy theory, it's the reality here in Canada. If you've paid any attention at all to the sordid history of aviation in Canada, never mind politics in general, you would know what I'm talking about.

[Plim Sole]

I also heard that CR can leap buildings, levitate cows by staring at them and catch bullets with his teeth.
Get real, if AC had that sort of reach it wouldn't be in the shitty mess it is today.

I still think you are on crack!

[Rockie]

Without resorting to the kinds is insults you are, I will only suggest Air Canada's problems are the result of decades of accumulated, unresolved problems that you likely are unaware of. You should read up a little.

[Fanblade]

This is a game of horse shoes. Closest to TA1 wins. If someone throws TA1 on the table the arb is done. It is simply the jurisprudence and there really is no other logical outcome since binding arbitration was imposed on the parties.

Because this is FOS the further ACPA strays in one direction from TA1 it allows AC to stray in the other just as far.

The reciprocal is true as well. The closer ACPA moves toward TA1 the less straying AC can do.

The breakdown in negotiations likely indicates ACPA was still trying to negotiate something not in stride with the concepts in TA1. If ACPA stays that course AC May very well get an opportunity to gut their CBA.

My instinct tells me that was the last attempt at ignoring the realities of having a previous MOA.

[Rockie]

Your instincts are ignoring the uncompromising ideology of the current federal government and the seedy eagerness of Air Canada to take maximum advantage of it.