What do you think is going to happen to:

[azimuthaviation]

Well it's a good thing, it was a shame to see the program close.




Coffee talk for now, but I for one will be willing to put some money up when and if progress on the ground happens. Depending on the circumstances of course.

So does this mean the save ecca camp has thrown in the towel?

In my first post meant to type newer, it was autocorrected to beware...

[Tom H]

Thanks for the input Azimuthaviaiton

Coffee talk for now, but I for one will be willing to put some money up when and if progress on the ground happens. Depending on the circumstances of course.

Well if it goes anywhere I'll post it here.

So does this mean the save ecca camp has thrown in the towel?

I honestly don't know.

What I do know with all the dealings we have had with the City of Edmonton and sitting on the redevelopment stakeholders committee is that short of the Feds throwing the brakes on it the City will close it as fast as they can push the Province to deal with Medi Vac.

The Province can't dive in due to the municipal government act, the law suits don't phase them and all other issues seem to be getting steam rollered.

It is very maddening.

[Tom H]

Still looking for comments on thoughts positive or negative.

Inquiring minds want to know!

Thanks Tom

[MrWings]

Why can't ZVL accomodate GA? I thought it was supposed to be developed like YBW?

[Tom H]

Why can't ZVL accomodate GA? I thought it was supposed to be developed like YBW?

It would be logical, but so far it doesn't seem to be happening

Tom

[Tom H]

Looks like the CFB Edmonton/Namao airbase option is coming off the plate.

http://www.inews880.com/Channels/Reg/Lo ... ID=1709009

Shame, using 03/21 (6750' X 150')it was an ideal site with the all the infrastructure there plus fast access to (3) hospitals.

Tom

[MrWings]

Who is responsible for developing ZVL? I assumed it was ERAA.

Are they waiting for funding from the Province?

[loopy]

Edmonton Airports needs to build a 5000 foot parallel 12-30 on the north side of YEG. It could run close to the threshold of 20' and out towards highway 19. They could then run right hand circuits all day without conflicting the original 12-30. If they were forward thinking they could develop and sell GA style hangars and condo's.....by having more AC based there, and having more operations ,people's perception of YEG would change dramatically for the better. Who knows, there may even be secondary development to service and support the increasing number of people and businesses that frequent the airport....

I think this is a great idea. When busy they could split into north and south tower frequencies with the XD tower controllers topping up the ranks in EG. It would open up more real estate on the airport, perhaps making rent rates more reasonable. Also, if that parallel had RNAV's or an ILS approach on it, Medevac flights could use it as a preffered runway during peak hours. That way, when 2-3 Medevacs are arriving within a few minutes of one another, on a crap day, during the busy periods, there is less chance of AC, Westjet and Jazz getting hold clearences, which they will love.

[Tom H]

Who is responsible for developing ZVL? I assumed it was ERAA.

Are they waiting for funding from the Province?

ERAA is the Vill operator and as such should be the developer.

But in the past 20years they have done little and now when YXD is getting close to it's termination date (educated guess) you would think they would be going full blast to create a place for the companies and aircraft displaced by the impending closure as per Springbank in Calgary.

Who knows why they haven't...I don't

[Tom H]

Edmonton Airports needs to build a 5000 foot parallel 12-30 on the north side of YEG. It could run close to the threshold of 20' and out towards highway 19. They could then run right hand circuits all day without conflicting the original 12-30. If they were forward thinking they could develop and sell GA style hangars and condo's.....by having more AC based there, and having more operations ,people's perception of YEG would change dramatically for the better. Who knows, there may even be secondary development to service and support the increasing number of people and businesses that frequent the airport....

I think this is a great idea. When busy they could split into north and south tower frequencies with the XD tower controllers topping up the ranks in EG. It would open up more real estate on the airport, perhaps making rent rates more reasonable. Also, if that parallel had RNAV's or an ILS approach on it, Medevac flights could use it as a preffered runway during peak hours. That way, when 2-3 Medevacs are arriving within a few minutes of one another, on a crap day, during the busy periods, there is less chance of AC, Westjet and Jazz getting hold clearences, which they will love.

Only problem would be the alternate would be Calgary...which would be an issue with medivac.

So the region would still need a second site with ILS.

[loopy]

I would suggest you still do the parralel at YEG, lengthen a runway at ZVL and add an ILS. It already has a tower. Then there is room at both airports for the XD tenants to move. The other option is add an ILS in YQF, but that is even farther from the Edmonton hospitals.

[MrWings]

ERAA is the Vill operator and as such should be the developer.

But in the past 20years they have done little and now when YXD is getting close to it's termination date (educated guess) you would think they would be going full blast to create a place for the companies and aircraft displaced by the impending closure as per Springbank in Calgary.

Who knows why they haven't...I don't

That's why that story you posted is confusing. It sounds like the Province is exploring options. Shouldn't it be ERAA?

The province is also thinking about upgrading Villeneuve Airport, northwest of Edmonton, for medical flights.

Actually, if that is true, the Danielle Smith did have a point about revisiting the CCA closure. The Province (taxpayers) spent millions on building hospitals in Edmonton to also serve Northern Alberta. If the north doesn't have access then the City pulled one over on the Province.

Horner did not want to speculate on the cost of either option which could be in the millions.

So why isn't ZVL development progressing? If the ERAA (City) wants to close down YXD, the quickest way is to get that airport expanded.

The City of Edmonton will not be able to close its downtown airport until an alternate site to the International is up and running for medical flights.

Why isn't there a transparent plan for the closure? It is all very confusing.

[5x5]

Why isn't there a transparent plan for the closure? It is all very confusing.

Primarily because both of the main players - ERAA and Edmonton City Council are not transparent organizations. It's a long and sordid story and painful to rehash, but being transparent would result in being open to logical debate. And their goals and the steps they are taking to get there are not logical. They are driven by personal alliances and dreams, not a desire to look out for the public's best interest.

[Beefitarian]

~sigh~ I hear you fiveby. It's sad but... Gone are the days when most people wanted to make this the best country in the world for everyone. Welcome to the days when most just want to make maximum profits.

[AEROBAT]

Closing the Muni has been a realestate scam from day one. There is nothing much anyone can do, it really will kill off a lot of jobs in Edmonton. The price for lots in Villaneauve to build hangers is retarded. Hossfords strip has closed along with Bodells and St. Albert. Once the Muni is closed there will be a lot of planes for sale in the Edmonton area for sure.

[Trematode]

Hey Tom,

Honest question:

It seems to me the real solution to your problem would have been to keep what we already had, right in the heart of the city.

From everything I've seen in the media, the Alberta Aviation Museum was silently complicit with the city's plan to bulldoze the place -- I don't think I ever read any statement from the museum opposing city council's plans. I do recall quite a few statements professing your willingness to work with the city moving forward post-closure, which to me, sounded very much like you were throwing your lot in with them.

I understand it's a complicated issue, and you guys have got to look out for the museum and its continued existence... But why??

I think you guys had a lot more cache of influence in the realm of public opinion than you may have thought. I think it would have helped out quite a bit to sway the public in favor of at least putting it to another referendum if you guys would have spoke out more... zealously.

The whole thing makes me very sad. Been here all my life, and we all joke about Edmontonians having an inferiority complex -- but the airport was actually something that made us unique, and it was something I was personally proud to have in the city. Not feeling so proud of my hometown, lately.


Anyway, as far as your space problem goes -- I hear there will be a few hangars down at the old blatchford field that won't be needed much longer!!

[Tom H]

Hey Tom,

Honest question:

It seems to me the real solution to your problem would have been to keep what we already had, right in the heart of the city.

From everything I've seen in the media, the Alberta Aviation Museum was silently complicit with the city's plan to bulldoze the place -- I don't think I ever read any statement from the museum opposing city council's plans. I do recall quite a few statements professing your willingness to work with the city moving forward post-closure, which to me, sounded very much like you were throwing your lot in with them.

I understand it's a complicated issue, and you guys have got to look out for the museum and its continued existence... But why??

I think you guys had a lot more cache of influence in the realm of public opinion than you may have thought. I think it would have helped out quite a bit to sway the public in favor of at least putting it to another referendum if you guys would have spoke out more... zealously.

The whole thing makes me very sad. Been here all my life, and we all joke about Edmontonians having an inferiority complex -- but the airport was actually something that made us unique, and it was something I was personally proud to have in the city. Not feeling so proud of my hometown, lately.


Anyway, as far as your space problem goes -- I hear there will be a few hangars down at the old blatchford field that won't be needed much longer!!

Trematode

Sorry for not responding sooner but had to give the method of responding some careful thought.


Honest question and it deserves an honest answer.

That said:
I spoke out publicly as an individual and Ward 2 resident during the debate in opposition to closure in the media, in the public hearings, in appointments arranged to meet with council members.

One thing I learned from that was to be careful of where you say what you think.

You're in Edmonton, as others here are, and I would be happy meet and have a coffee at the museum or Runway 29 and answer anything you like openly an honestly.

Call me at the museum 780-451-1175 and anyone else that want to talk about Trematode's question.

Tom

[Shark]

Hi Tom,

Like Trematode, I as well have some honest questions for you.

Why did you run in the 2010 civic election when there was already a pro well funded ecca candidate in place? By doing so you took away pro airport votes which could of went to Don Koziak (backed by Envision Edmonton). In the end Mr Koziak would have still been short 13 votes if he had your supporters but it might have helped to have your association to throw their support to a candidate which had an actual chance.

Poll Results:
#1 Kim Krushell (Big Proponent of closing the airport) 6,855
#2 Don Koziak 6,303
#5 Thomas Hinderks 539
Edmonton Municipal election 2010 results from Wikipedia

How were you able to obtain financial assistance promised in the 2011 city budget to deal with short falls due to the changes at the City Centre airport? Last I heard which was around July 2011 was that you were taking a leave of absence due to the city not paying the museum the budgeted amount. It is astonishing that you even had this in place at one time considering all other operators at the airport have been given no such help at all even though their operations have been affected greatly with the loss of runway 16-34(ILS). Is there any update? Have you since received special funding from the city due to the closing of the one runway? If so why are you receiving help and no one else?

In 2010 you were involved with the Race Week Edmonton group. My question here is how could you work so closely with a group of people who so vehemently want to close the city centre airport?
For example:
Richard Skermer: Huge proponent of closing the airport and runs the Connect 2 Edmonton website (site consists of large number of EIA employees and pro closure proponents of the airport).
EIA (Edmonton International Airport): Everyone is well aware of this organizations involving!
As back to my question as yourself being a proponent of keeping the airport open, how could you deal with these individuals on a day to day basis when they want to shut down the location of your operation?

With the Envision Edmonton petition drive for a referendum to vote on the airport closure, why did the museum decline to have any signature sheets inside the museum? Volunteers had tried to drop of signature sheet to the museum but it was declined.

The last question I have for you is was it your idea which was given to the city of Edmonton to close half the airport (i.e. Runway 16-34 [eastern section of the airport]) for Nait (Tech school) expansion as a compromise? I have heard from numerous sources that this idea was conceived from you. I will disclaim as well though that I have no hard evidence of this.

So those are the questions I have for you Tom, I decline to give you a call or head down to 29 to discuss these questions but would rather a response posted on this site. I think the work you’ve done at the museum has been excellent and can attest for the huge improvements that have taken place on your watch. But I do agree with Trematode that the best solution for you would have been to keep the airport open as is, which in return makes me wonder why the museum didn’t fully support the pro airport movement.

[Beefitarian]

Notwithstanding a potential hind sight running for office error, I like to think Tom's on the, "Let's keep the airport open." side here, why oppose him?

If someone knows how to save the place. Step up, most here are interested in such a thing I think.

[Tom H]

Shark

I'll answer to stuff that is public knowledge or a matter of public record, anything else is face to face or not at all.

You see I am clear about who I am in all arenas, here, publicly and politically as such I have paid a very high price for my stands and have learned the hard way when and how I make comments and give answers.

Why did you run in the 2010 civic election when there was already a pro well funded ecca candidate in place?

To be honest I had made it known I intended to run when Don Koziak was still talking Mayor.
We both went public within an hour of each other as I recall.

When he announced I backed off and just looked at it as getting an education. An expensive one as I released people supporting me to support Don and took all the costs on myself that had been committed to. (Signs ordered and cancelled etc.)

If you want to play the vote game...Roxie Malone, pro airport, never backed off, took more votes yet I never hear the complaint about her and it would have given Don a clear win.

There are lots of reasons Don didn't quite win, Krushell spent almost double (you can look it up on the city website), policy positions beyond the airport.

So frankly I don't feel any guilt...mind you some communication would have been nice and saved time and trouble all the way around.

but it might have helped to have your association to throw their support to a candidate which had an actual chance.

The Association did not back anyone, not me or anyone else. He did get all the support from the members here, at my personal request to them...as I said, I backed off.

How were you able to obtain financial assistance promised in the 2011 city budget to deal with short falls due to the changes at the City Centre airport?

By lobbying councilors/administration and working through the system with detailed information on how the changes have affected operations. A lot of time, effort and providing information.

Last I heard which was around July 2011 was that you were taking a leave of absence due to the city not paying the museum the budgeted amount.

First, the leave of absence was not part of the city dollar issue. After 5 years of 200+ hrs a month and no holidays I burnt out and had to take a break. I took the opportunity to point out the continuing issue on a long term commitment as it was part of the reason myself and other staff members were burning out.

It is astonishing that you even had this in place at one time considering all other operators at the airport have been given no such help at all even though their operations have been affected greatly with the loss of runway 16-34(ILS).

I can't comment on what or what not others are getting because I don't know and I don't know what process they are following. What we have done is a matter of public information available in the City of Edmonton minutes which is why I feel free to talk about it.

In 2010 you were involved with the Race Week Edmonton group. My question here is how could you work so closely with a group of people who so vehemently want to close the city centre airport?

Race Week Edmonton has nothing to do with the airport issue and it’s an event that is good for the City and the overall area so I support it, that simple. While I was directly involved (not part of the organizing body any longer due to the little burn out issue mentioned above) there were many people that were pro airport involved for the same reasons I was and I have stated above.

Richard Skermer continues to be a friend of mine, was anti sched service but pro ECCA, as a fair number of people were. Comes from an aviation family and continues to be very pro aviation.

EIA (Edmonton International Airport): Everyone is well aware of this organizations involving!
As back to my question as yourself being a proponent of keeping the airport open, how could you deal with these individuals on a day to day basis when they want to shut down the location of your operation?

While ANYONE you talk to at EIA will confirm I have always been Pro ECCA and they would likely confirm all of the public and private efforts I made personally in support of keeping operations. That said, unless you live in a better world than I do you often have to deal with people that you may disagree on an issue with. Even if you disagree, as in my working with EIA, it doesn't mean you have to be a jerk or you can't work on moving other things ahead.

Slamming the door on people would have meant killing Airfest 3 years earlier, no visiting aircraft, no young eagles flights, no air cadet events on the ramp and many other events that required their co operation and permission.

The last question I have for you is was it your idea which was given to the city of Edmonton to close half the airport (i.e. Runway 16-34 [eastern section of the airport]) for Nait (Tech school) expansion as a compromise? I have heard from numerous sources that this idea was conceived from you. I will disclaim as well though that I have no hard evidence of this.

No actually the opposite, I personally lobbied hard to protect 16/34 and the ILS, promoted a series of options other than full closure to protect 16/34 and am on public record at the City of Edmonton in doing so at public consultations at City Hall and is known by anyone who attended or cares to look it up.

Anything else...face to face

Tom

[Tom H]

Notwithstanding a potential hind sight running for office error, I like to think Tom's on the, "Let's keep the airport open." side here, why oppose him?

Thanks

I'm trying to look forward, hindsight is a great way to learn but doesn't fix the current problem.

Shark

You mentioned C2E
Maybe you should look up my stand there...

There I was the Pro Airport anti christ and never backed off and fought on it for years.

[Beefitarian]

I understand, shark is just cranky about them shutting down that airport. I makes me angry and I don't even like Edmonton.

[AEROBAT]

Why don't we all get together and buy some land? Then it's not leased. Make it a kind of air-park with a housing side and commercial sector? I could save some money on hanger rental by parking the airplane in my garage. My wife and I want to relocate to Edmonton anyways. Any rich fellows out there that could start a developement? I'd buy a house with an attached hanger for under $500,000 but any more and it's un-affordable (and must have titled lots)

Just a thought. I heard there was an airpark near Edmonton already but I don't know the area well. I'm from further east.

You could check out Twin Island airpark. It is next door to Cooking Lake.

[azimuthaviation]

Cars question relating to zvl. Zvl airport according to the Cfs is limited up to 12500 lbs gross takeoff weight. Does that mean an a/c with a mctow is not allowed to use it or can an aircraft with a mctow that high use it if its weight is below that number?

[Tom H]

You could check out Twin Island airpark. It is next door to Cooking Lake.

Great place, I have friends that live there. But unless you inherit I don't know how you would ever get in!

Westlock airport was (is?) doing something similar but last I heard it was sold out.

There is a development going in Wetaskwin that I have been told has gotten zoning to allow you to build a home on the 2nd level of your hangar! Great idea but last word I had t was close to sold out.
Certainly worth checking out though.

Cars question relating to zvl. Zvl airport according to the Cfs is limited up to 12500 lbs gross takeoff weight. Does that mean an a/c with a mctow is not allowed to use it or can an aircraft with a mctow that high use it if its weight is below that number?

Good question and one I haven't been able to get a clear answer on. That said the other night a tri jet Dassault was there (musta had big kahoonas getting in and out) wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it.

Tom