* AvCanada's Home Page * Photo Gallery * Directory * Topsites *Weather *Enter Chat * Media Kit
It is currently Thu May 23, 2013 10:24 am

View unanswered posts | View active topics




Board index » TOP AVIATION FORUMS » General Comments » Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft

All times are UTC [ DST ]

Who is chatting
Who is chatting
Enter Chat




Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 1
  [ 18 posts ] 
  Previous topic | Next topic 
Author Message
cncpc
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:26 pm 
Offline
Rank 5
Rank 5

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:17 pm
Posts: 348
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Three+ ... story.html

It seems it was a Bailey Helicopters machine doing training.


Top
 Profile  
 
luckyboy
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:05 pm 
Offline
Rank 3
Rank 3

Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:48 pm
Posts: 124
Condolences to the families. Losing three more pilots like this, on a training mission... what a tragedy. The issue of having a 3rd pilot onboard to benefit from the observation has been commented on before, and I personnally hate jumping the seat in that fashion. Reminds me of the Seneca College fatal accident of 3 pilots also on a training mission, and other similar cases in the past. I know it is common practice in the training role and many defend it but I dislike it immensely, even if it saves money or helps somewhat in learning.

As to what happened, well we wont know for quite a while but weather was reported as poor. That alone is enough to get us thinking real hard until the TSB comes up with their findings next year.


Top
 Profile  
 
Heliian
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:39 pm 
Offline
Rank 6
Rank 6

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:14 pm
Posts: 444
Our industry has suffered another terrible tragedy and I send my condolences to all.


Top
 Profile  
 
2550
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:28 am 
Offline
Rank 2
Rank 2

Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 9:25 pm
Posts: 86
My condolences to the families as well.

I guess i missed the thread you mention discussing the third person in the back for training. Just wondering why you figure it adds to risk?


Top
 Profile  
 
Gogona
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:11 am 
Offline
Rank 3
Rank 3
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:41 pm
Posts: 129
2550 wrote:
My condolences to the families as well.
I guess i missed the thread you mention discussing the third person in the back for training. Just wondering why you figure it adds to risk?

Well, I have the similar point of view.
I know nothing about exactly this heli flight, but generally, flying as a passenger on the back seat in known challenging weather conditions with another student pilot at the controls is unnecessary risk. It just doesn't worth that. Do I really need to expand my opinion?


Top
 Profile  
 
200hr Wonder
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:25 am 
Offline
Rank 10
Rank 10
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:52 pm
Posts: 2056
Location: CYVR
Guys who said anyone was a student pilot? Bailey is a working heli company not a flight training outfit. The guys at the controls where commercial heli pilots and either doing initial PPC or recurrent training. A far cry from 3 PPL holders working on commercial licenses like Seneca, or other flight training operating with a third wheel in the back. Lets keep this on track.

Condolences to the three families who are suffering a great deal of pain at this time.


Top
 Profile  
 
sky's the limit
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:15 pm 
Offline
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:38 pm
Posts: 4418
Location: Now where's the starter button on this thing???
Thoughts and condolences go out to all at Bailey, friends and family. It is always extremely sad when we lose somebody.

For those of you who do not fly helicopts, or are fairly low time, the practice of conducting company training, recurrent PPC or mountain, is not only common it is extremely beneficial. I think it is awfully premature to start debating the merits of this practice given we know nothing of the circumstances of this accident.

Sad day once again. Fly safe out there.


Top
 Profile  
 
cncpc
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:26 pm 
Offline
Rank 5
Rank 5

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:17 pm
Posts: 348
To 200 and STL. Well said!

It is no more or less dangerous being the observer than it is being any other passenger.


Top
 Profile  
 
petpad
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:02 pm 
Offline
Rank 2
Rank 2

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:59 pm
Posts: 84
.


Last edited by petpad on Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
sky's the limit
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:28 pm 
Offline
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:38 pm
Posts: 4418
Location: Now where's the starter button on this thing???
Pet,

It seems to me your opinion is based on either limited experience with good training, or on a lack of exposure to the scenario you're commenting on.

This is not like conducting training on revenue flights, dead legs, or otherwise as is often done in fixed wing ops, in aircraft where the third pilot is unable to see what is happening. In the mountain environment or on more complex machines there can be great benefits to the observing pilot. Particularly in an Astar or Medium where the observer can watch all aspects of the flight, in the 206/407, i would agree there is limited value. When you are the pilot flying during training there is a level of overload that is reached, and given that we in the rotary world do not generally have access to sims where we are able to record, play back, and analyse performance, and we almost always fly alone, it is on occasion a very valuable tool to use.

Not to mention it has ZERO to do with economics.

I am uncertain how you can be so bold as to say it is unequivocally all about economics when the company must train each pilot to the required standard, whether they observe as a third pilot or not? There is no cost benefit to the operator whatsoever, contrary to your statement. Is it a risk? Of course, every time we leave the ground there is a risk involved, but I would submit that in certain instances it is far more beneficial in the long term than forgoing the opportunity. There are a great many ills inflicted on pilots by companies all through our industry, but I can't add this situation to that list.


Top
 Profile  
 
2.5milefinal
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:42 am 
Offline
Rank 4
Rank 4

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 6:39 pm
Posts: 213
My Condolences to all those involved...sad times.

And for those that think its unsafe (or whatever) to have a third pilot observe and learn. All I can say is you better not come to the place I work. Not only do we do it all the time but its in our training manual/SOPs.


Top
 Profile  
 
tiggermoth
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:46 am 
Offline
Rank 4
Rank 4

Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 7:00 am
Posts: 211
Location: little bit west, little bit north
I am an employee of Bailey Helicopters. Friday morning we all lost not only 3 co-workers, but 3 friends as well. On behalf of all of us here, I thank you for your kind words.

Unfortunately, I am not able to share much of the information I do know at the moment. It is much to early to know what went wrong, just that the weather was not the best.

I am hoping that in the next few days we will be able to provide more details.

Thank You.


Top
 Profile  
 
petpad
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:32 am 
Offline
Rank 2
Rank 2

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:59 pm
Posts: 84
.


Last edited by petpad on Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
tiggermoth
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:37 am 
Offline
Rank 4
Rank 4

Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 7:00 am
Posts: 211
Location: little bit west, little bit north
Thanks Pet. I edited my post a bit :D


Top
 Profile  
 
sky's the limit
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:24 am 
Offline
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:38 pm
Posts: 4418
Location: Now where's the starter button on this thing???
Hi Pet,

No worries, it seems we probably have more in common than not on these subjects, but the medium is not the best sometimes. PM coming your way.

On that note, after a quick note from Tigermoth I think it best if we keep this thread for condolences for the three people involved and all those affected by this terrible accident. If a discussion on training is something we want to follow up on, perhaps someone can start a topic in Flight Training where it will be more appropriate.

Once again, all the best to those involved.

Stl


Top
 Profile  
 
2550
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:51 am 
Offline
Rank 2
Rank 2

Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 9:25 pm
Posts: 86
Agreed. Sorry. Not the time or place.


Top
 Profile  
 
tiggermoth
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:08 pm 
Offline
Rank 4
Rank 4

Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 7:00 am
Posts: 211
Location: little bit west, little bit north
I believe I can share just a little bit more of what we know, which will hopefully help a little bit with some understanding. Obviously we do not have any idea of what went wrong, and won't for a while yet.

The third person in the aircraft was not a pilot, he was one of our engineers. We are not certain, but what we have been able to figure from their flight itinerary they went out to familiarize the second pilot with the terrain around the Terrace area, and the engineer was along as they were going to be heading to a location after for some presentations in which he was to be involved.

Thank you again for the kind words.


Top
 Profile  
 
iflyforpie
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:56 pm 
Offline
Top Poster
Top Poster
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:25 pm
Posts: 5609
Location: The Misty Mountains...
My condolences to all affected. :(


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 1
  [ 18 posts ] 


Board index » TOP AVIATION FORUMS » General Comments » Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft

All times are UTC [ DST ]

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group

Advertisements by Advertisement Management
 
For questions/comments please send them to
webmaster@avcanada.ca

AvCanada Topsites List
AVIATION TOP 100 - www.avitop.com Avitop.com
While the administrators and moderators of this  forum will attempt to remove or edit any generally objectionable material as  quickly as possible, it is impossible to review every message. If you feel a  topic or post is inappropriate email us at support@avcanada.ca .  By reading these forums you acknowledge that  all posts made to these forums express the views and opinions of the author and  not the administrators, moderators or webmaster (except for posts by these  people) and hence will not be held liable. This website is not responsible or liable in any way for any false or misleading messages or job ads placed at our site.   

Use AvCanada's information at your own risk!

We reserve the right to remove any messages that we deem unacceptable.
  When you post a message, your IP is logged and may be provided to concerned parties where unethical or illegal  behavior is apparent. All rights reserved.