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notpaying
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:26 am 
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I decided to start this topic after I read a thread about a belgian professional asking on what his chances were if he were to come to Canada and pursue a flying career. He got a nitty response from a fellow avcanada user putting him right back at his place. In other words, there's no place in Canada for him. I disagree. Here is the thread if you're curious: http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=81933

With all due respect here, what is a foreign pilot to you guys. I think it's time that we draw a BIG FAT LINE here. I am a pilot of foreign descendants and I feel slightly queasy every single time that someone bashes about foreign pilots, not because I don't agree with the cause (Sunwing petition) but because eventhough I am Canadian I have foreign descendants thus a foreign name. I however have completed my training in Canada, have worked and grown up in Canada, paid taxes and etc and plan on living the rest of my life here. However, my name is and WILL ALWAYS be foreign to everyone born here in this country.

Check out Seneca for example, more than a few of the grads there must have foreign names. Look at most flight schools, lots of them live off foreigners hoping to make it in Canada as pilots, I'm not saying it's the main feeding joint of flight schools however it does represent a portion of the demand. I agree with the sunwing petition and that our labor should be kept local. I just have a fear that this anti-foreign pilots in Canada might rub off on my chances and other citiziens with non-Canadian names to establish progress here in Canada. I fear that foreign pilots aren't just Sunwing pilots flying foreign registered aircraft leased from overseas but also current pilots like me trying to make it or future pilots trying to establish themselves here in Canada. We have to set limits as to what a ''foreign pilot'' is.

So here's a challenge. What do you avcanadians think a foreign pilot is?


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scopiton
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:01 am 
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you'll be a foreign pilot for as long as you take a job from a Canadian who feels entitled to this particular job he hasn't.

but lets start by defining what a Canadian is exactly..... should be funny. 8)


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I_Heart_Seaplanes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:08 am 
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To me its pretty simple:
Canadian Citizen or Resident on Canadian licence = Canadian pilot
On a temp visa or permit with a Non-Canadian licence = Foreign pilot

Doesn't matter where you were born, grew-up or trained.


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moocow
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:00 am 
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In the simplest form, I_Heart_Seaplanes is right. However, we need to ask if Canada need to import skilled pilots.

1. Do we need to set a quota for commercial & airline rated pilots coming in as skill immigrants? The government already does this to a certain degree for other professional areas.

2. Should we force companies that take in completely foreign pilots (per Seaplanes definition) to take on Canadian pilots and train them as a condition?

Like the HR lady at CX told me during my cadet interview: "There are enough applicants just not enough qualified ones". Companies these days have no interest in training newbies but instead want people with experience. Just look at any job board and you will see what I mean. CX's zero experience iCadet program got killed by HK Immigration because they were seem as giving away training opportunities to foreigners. There is a difference between "no immigrants at all" and "there is excessive individuals in this field already". At the end of the day, immigration is about supply & demand of labour and investment.


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esp803
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:25 am 
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I look forward to the day where I can work in any country I desire without hassle. I love travel, love flying, the expat thing is a lot of fun

E


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Localizer
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:44 pm 
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Maybe i'm the only one who finds this odd but .. the Canadian government doesn't allow Doctor's, Dentist, heavy equipment operators, or for that matter any other skilled foreign labour to come to Canada and exercise their skills without demonstrating their qualifications and knowledge. They are obligated to jump through the same hoops as every other Canadian to show they are qualified.

It seems to me that foreign pilots are wrapped in the same cloak as greenhouse workers/fruit/veggie pickers. The HRDC website has no direction about the TFWP meeting specific qualifications. (ie. having a Canadian pilots license)

Wrong on all levels ... but to keep these comments in line with the original post ... Canadian citizen or equal with a Canadian pilots license, anything else in my mind would be considered foreign.


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FlyGy
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:35 pm 
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Localizer wrote:
Maybe i'm the only one who finds this odd but .. the Canadian government doesn't allow Doctor's, Dentist, heavy equipment operators, or for that matter any other skilled foreign labour to come to Canada and exercise their skills without demonstrating their qualifications and knowledge. They are obligated to jump through the same hoops as every other Canadian to show they are qualified.


I can't speak to Heavy Equipment, but Doctors, Dentists, and many other professionals do not have to jump through any government hoops to work in Canada. You're getting the government confused with the regulatory bodies of the professions. Doctors must pass exams conducted by the College of Physicians and Surgeons within the chosen province of practice. Electricians, plumbers, and many other trades must also pass entry exams before they are permitted to ply their trades.

If pilots want to regulate foreign pilots they need to have a professional regulating body who's job it is to register and regulate pilots in the country. Essentially, you'd have to take over the job that Transport Canada does in providing licensure. As a national pilots association you would also be required to enforce regulations that would result in fines or suspensions, etc. It's a big big big undertaking. I was involved in a similar process to create a regulatory body for another profession on the provincial level. It took almost 2 decades.


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Gilles Hudicourt
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:39 am 
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notpaying wrote:
I decided to start this topic after I read a thread about a belgian professional asking on what his chances were if he were to come to Canada and pursue a flying career. He got a nitty response from a fellow avcanada user putting him right back at his place. In other words, there's no place in Canada for him. I disagree. Here is the thread if you're curious: http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=81933

With all due respect here, what is a foreign pilot to you guys. I think it's time that we draw a BIG FAT LINE here. I am a pilot of foreign descendants and I feel slightly queasy every single time that someone bashes about foreign pilots, not because I don't agree with the cause (Sunwing petition) but because eventhough I am Canadian I have foreign descendants thus a foreign name. I however have completed my training in Canada, have worked and grown up in Canada, paid taxes and etc and plan on living the rest of my life here. However, my name is and WILL ALWAYS be foreign to everyone born here in this country. .....


So here's a challenge. What do you avcanadians think a foreign pilot is?


The threads about the foreign pilots at Sunwing and Canjet were about people who were allowed into Canada on temporary short term work permits and were not Canadian Citizens or Legal residents of Canada with Transport Canada licences. These people have their regular residences in other countries, are licensed in other countries, work for airlines in other countries and pay no taxes in Canada when they come and do short term contracts in Canada.

Those are the foreigners we were talking about. There was nothing Xenophobic about the threads. It's just that Canadian Airlines should hire pilots in Canada, not outsource our domestic jobs overseas on bogus arguments......


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Colonel Sanders
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:13 am 
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If you're not descended from United Empire Loyalists, you're a foreigner in my books.

That's right. If your family wasn't here in the 1700's, and didn't fight with distinction in the War of 1812, well, you're just not a real Canadian.


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scopiton
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:35 am 
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"Those are the foreigners we were talking about. There was nothing Xenophobic about the threads. It's just that Canadian Airlines should hire pilots in Canada"

I know it wasn't your intentions, but it was relatively obvious that the original way to talk about the subject would lead to that kind of drift. because in people's mind full of laziness and shortcuts, there's no difference between "from somewhere else but Canadian citizen" and "foreign with temporary working permit".

proof is viewtopic.php?f=13&t=81933 and some still don't make the difference.

using "pilots with a non canadian atpl" would have been better than a simple and bold "foreign".
nobody's perfect.


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ScudRunner
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:51 am 
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Colonel Sanders wrote:
If you're not descended from United Empire Loyalists, you're a foreigner in my books.

That's right. If your family wasn't here in the 1700's, and didn't fight with distinction in the War of 1812, well, you're just not a real Canadian.



Well then I am Canadian, everyone else :smt016 .

Scudrunner UEL


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bmc
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:17 am 
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Colonel Sanders wrote:
If you're not descended from United Empire Loyalists, you're a foreigner in my books.

That's right. If your family wasn't here in the 1700's, and didn't fight with distinction in the War of 1812, well, you're just not a real Canadian.



Gotta add "white" and of one of the recognized Christian religions. And settled in one of the two REAL Canadian provinces (Ontario and Quebec). Oh, and can't forget must be heterosexual.

Image


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WJ733
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:31 am 
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Colonel Sanders wrote:
If you're not descended from United Empire Loyalists, you're a foreigner in my books.

That's right. If your family wasn't here in the 1700's, and didn't fight with distinction in the War of 1812, well, you're just not a real Canadian.


If that's the case, then your talking about close to 90-95% of the Canadian population is foreign. That's the vast majority :roll:


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bmc
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:56 am 
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WJ733 wrote:
Colonel Sanders wrote:
If you're not descended from United Empire Loyalists, you're a foreigner in my books.

That's right. If your family wasn't here in the 1700's, and didn't fight with distinction in the War of 1812, well, you're just not a real Canadian.


If that's the case, then your talking about close to 90-95% of the Canadian population is foreign. That's the vast majority :roll:


Me thinks that's his point, to which I would agree.


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Gilles Hudicourt
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:04 pm 
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From 1812 to 2012 is 200 years. One generation is about 25 years, so 200 years is roughly 8 generations. Colonel Sanders had a mother and father. These also each had a mother and father. Two generation and 4 ancestors. They each had a mother and father. Three generations, 8 people. They also each had a mother and father. Four generations, 16 people. They each had a mother and father. Five generations, 32 people. They each had a mother and father. Six generations, 64 people. They each had a mother and father: Seven generations, 128 people. They each had a mother and father, eight generations, 256 people.
So if we we to take a snapshot of Colonel Sanders' direct ancestors in 1812, the people who gave him his genes, there would be about 256 living adults in 1812. Counting their parents would bring us to about 512 people, who were all a direct ancestor of Colonel Sanders.

They could be Englishmen, Welsh, Irish, Frenchmen, Italian, Chinese, Ukrainian, German, Aboriginal, Portuguese, Dutch, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, African Slaves, soldiers, farmers, priests, thieves, prisoners, deportees, murderers, rapists, bankers, politicians, trappers, hunters, sailors, or just about anything that existed on Earth. Does having just one of the 256 people being a United Empire Loyalist qualify him as a genuine Canadian? Chances are most of the 256 were not even living in North America, let alone Canada.

Some people live in a dream.......

The grandfather of every living Frenchman was a resistance fighter in WWII, not a single German living today had a Nazi grandfather, and Colonel Sanders is a real Canadian..........


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Colonel Sanders
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:13 pm 
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Not a concern for me - I have a straight line for a family tree. Pure UEL here!

PS my sister is bugging me to go to the 1812 re-enactment at Niagara. Anyone else going?


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just curious
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:07 am 
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I might


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Colonel Sanders
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:11 am 
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in period costume?


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azimuthaviation
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:39 am 
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Colonel Sanders wrote:
If you're not descended from United Empire Loyalists, you're a foreigner in my books.

That's right. If your family wasn't here in the 1700's, and didn't fight with distinction in the War of 1812, well, you're just not a real Canadian.


Even Quebec separatists? What if Quebec does separate? Will the people who stay in Quebec and take Quebecois citizenship remain real Canadians, since nothing has changed in regards to your definition?


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Colonel Sanders
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:14 am 
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Don't confuse Quebecois with Canadians. Quebec isn't part of Canada now. How can it separate from something it isn't part of?

Is it time for some Venn diagrams again?


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just curious
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:00 am 
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So far it's me Scud and the Colonel, and the rest of you are furiners. Okay, we'll take cat as Aboriginal, and maybe a few Acadians who werent sent to New Orleans... But that's it.


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av8ts
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:06 pm 
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Even though I am not a dependent of United Empire Loyalists we were here in the 1700's and fought with distinction with the Royal Newfoundland Regiment of Fencible Infantry.


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Cat Driver
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:10 pm 
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Quote:
Okay, we'll take cat as Aboriginal,


It is a bit more blurred than that because I was a landed immigrant from Newfoundland when I came to Canada.......so where in fu.k do I fit in?


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Beefitarian
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:20 pm 
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You know, 30 years ago I'd be cranky about this. Now days this place is just a region to me. You can have it. Deport me.


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Nark
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:42 pm 
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You know the jokes that never seem to get old?

As I sit here in Halifax and type this, in order to do so I had to show my US passport to the customs folks. In it, it says country of birth: Canada. The agent always asks for my Canadian passport, to which I reply, "I don't have one." The inevitable response is. "Why not?"
And I dutifully answer, "I'm not Canadian."

So to answer your question, I am a foreign pilot flying in Canada.


I just happen to originate the flights in the US...


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