Villeneuve Airport question

[Tom H]

With all that has happened in the Edmonton region I am doing some research on options and looking for feed back...positive or negative.

Villeneuve airport appears to be the only option for private, recreational, light to medium General aviation and the only airport (currently operating in the area) that can be equipped with a longer runway and ILS to act as an alternate.

As an individual would you invest in a hangar at Villeneuve under the current operation/structure?

As a business would you invest in infrastructure under the current operation/structure?

If you would not consider Villeneuve under the current operation/structure what would need to change to make it attractive.

Appreciate all input positive and negative.

Thanks Tom

[loopy]

Hey, I love aviation and airports, period. I would love to see them thrive. Speaking from the point of view of my outfit, doing medevac and charter, using CZVL doesn't seem like it had advantages over CYEG for pax or patients. It's not really any closer to are hospitals or many businesses. Also, for most of our crews, it's an even longer drive than CYEG. Someone would have to open an FBO there, or we would have to have our own hangar and fuel.

[oldtimer]

From what has been posted here I believe the only way some people would be happy is if they build an ILS runway right beside Jasper Avenue or made White Avenue a runway.
There is nothing basically wrong with CYEG that a bit of infastructure cannot fix. It has been at least 10 years since I last flew into CYEG on a regular basis but back then, facilities for general aviation were the pits because everything was geared to the airlines.
General Aviation was at the north end of the field and even taxi drivers didn't know there was anything up there. Now, if someoe were to build a good general aviation facility somewhere on the airport, people will fly in there and be happy. Memory is short and if CYXD is closed, it will just become nostalga.
One company I worked for thought CYEG was just great because businesses the company dealt with were in Leduc or Edmonton south side. But at that time it was a real hassle to get even a few liters of Avgas at 22:00 hrs in the evening because for genaral aviation, they rolled up the sidewalks and shuttered the windows after the sun went down so the company bit the bullet and parked at CYXD. I understand now that a fix is in the works.
I only drove from Edmonton city to Villeneuve once back in the late 80's and I though it was an awkward airport to drive to. Now I think a more direct highway route would help but what happens at that airport when the sun goes down. Most flight schools close up shop and go home after the sun sets.

[Beefitarian]

I want an elevated runway right on top of the mall.

[Tom H]

Appreciate the responses gentlemen...even the larf about the mall!

The Edmonton region needs an alternate...the International cannot do everything, that just life.

But nothing is going to happen if no one screams, this is politics.

So if others out there have a comment the time is now...do it under your alias if you are worried, but do it or as far as the politicians are concerned everything is just fine.

Tom

[Tom H]

Oldtimer appreciate the comments but I see it as more than flight schools.

The cost of being at EIA according to a journal article on Canadian Helicopters is $33.00 square foot, small operators, Flight Schools, AMEs working on light twins and spam cans and even light to mid weight GA charter operators cannot afford that hit and stay in business.

Recreational aircraft cannot afford EIA and Cooking Lake can only absorb so much.

There has to be an alternate for medivac other than Calgary, that is fact as peoples lives depend on it.

So something has to change, but right now no one is saying what it is going to take to make Villeneuve or any other alternative work.

That leads the politicians and the general public to think everything is just fine, meaning nothing will change.

Still looking for comments pro or con on the topic.

[Beefitarian]

I like the muni (yeah I'm going to call it that ) because it's so convenient, but the majority of people that live in Edmonton probably don't care. I believe most Canadians hate airplanes unless they are taking them to Cabo for a discount vacation.

I think those in general aviation up there will just wait until they have no other choice to develop an alternate to the international. Don't let it slow you down Tom, I Like your effort. What does Fort Saskatchewan have? I could see that city and a couple of the plants getting behind a nice medium facility. The future is in private ventures I fear. Government, especially in Alberta does not want to do business, even if it would attract more business.

I believe that is part of why we will lose the muni.

[Tom H]

I like the muni (yeah I'm going to call it that ) because it's so convenient, but the majority of people that live in Edmonton probably don't care. I believe most Canadians hate airplanes unless they are taking them to Cabo for a discount vacation.

I think most Canadians have forgotten about aviation and what it does period. We work hard in our museum, as other museums do across Canada, to educate the public on not just the history but what it does for them today from AG to Airlines.

But as an aviation culture we need to work together to do more. You see if people don't know about something they don't care, we don't give them a reason to care.

I think those in general aviation up there will just wait until they have no other choice to develop an alternate to the international.

That is the problem, we need to be working NOW to get things in place before we are out of time. If businesses do not have a place to move where the can afford to operate they can't wait and will just move somewhere else.

If I am angry about something other than the ECCA closure it's the lack of developing a place for ALL of the industry to go, rather than just those that can support the higher costs.

Once we lose it it will be almost impossible to get it back.

Don't let it slow you down Tom, I Like your effort.

Appreciate that, but I am one voice right now and the common response is..."nobody is complaining so things are fine." It's time to make noise (pro or con) or lose things.

What does Fort Saskatchewan have? I could see that city and a couple of the plants getting behind a nice medium facility.

The Fort has Josephburg and what you described has happened to an extent, but additional development is limited (I know of 2 buyers for lots that have tried for years they tell me) the runway is too short for an alternate and no ILS. Add in the distance from the City market and its out of the game.

Villeneuve has some potential as it is 34 minutes from the core by google maps and driving it and only minutes from St Albert and the Northside.

The future is in private ventures I fear.

Agreed, there are willing investors, but only if they own the land. They won't invest unless there is a proven demand. No one is showing that demand.

Government, especially in Alberta does not want to do business, even if it would attract more business.
I believe that is part of why we will lose the muni.

I believe if there is a business demand and enough noise the Province of Alberta will become involved, they need the alternate as much as anyone else, for medivac.

Villeneuve, St. Albert, County of Sturgeon can use the economic development.

But again...if there is no demonstrable demand and no vocal support there is nothing to work with.

Tom

[oldtimer]

I like the way this thread is going. Positive comments from all.
This is what I have seen over the years.
Except for the airlines, general aviation is going in 4 directions.
We have the medevac and charter operators who want convenient locations available daily for extended hours at a reasonable price. That means an all weather airport with an FBO, taxiis and/or rental cars. Charter pilots want somewhere to get in out of the cold and some sort of food. That is what CYXD used to offer.
We have the higher end corperate operators who want the best of facilities, regardless of cost. They do not want taxiis, they want a limo to drive out on the ramp and up to the dooor of their Gulfstream. That means an all weather airport. The last time I was there, that was CYEG. But CYEG needs someone with deep pockets to build expensive FBO's.
We have the flight school/small maintenance operators who want decent enough facilities at a price they can afford so they can earn a decent living. The last time I was there, that was Villeneuve.
We have the private owners who want something free or at least very cheap. Fine wine for the price of cheap beer. That is I believe what Cooking Lake and others have to offer. VFR only is good enough.
Fort Saskatchewan would be a good idea, just needs someone with very deep pockets to develop something but many would land at CYEG because it is closer, especially for businesses in south Edmonton.

[Tom H]

Except for the airlines, general aviation is going in 4 directions.

We have the medevac and charter operators who want convenient locations available daily for extended hours at a reasonable price. That means an all weather airport with an FBO, taxiis and/or rental cars. Charter pilots want somewhere to get in out of the cold and some sort of food. That is what CYXD used to offer.

Agreed to a point, now it needs offered in two locations...EIA and an alternate that may be the ops base as well as being faster to access some medical facilities.

We have the higher end corperate operators who want the best of facilities, regardless of cost. They do not want taxiis, they want a limo to drive out on the ramp and up to the dooor of their Gulfstream. That means an all weather airport. The last time I was there, that was CYEG. But CYEG needs someone with deep pockets to build expensive FBO's.

Agreed again to a point, there is no reason it cannot be offered at (2) sites, EIA for Nisku/Leduc/South Edmonton and areas where EIA is the most convenient. Plus an alternate for St.Albert/North Edmonton and areas that are better accessed to a North location.

We have the flight school/small maintenance operators who want decent enough facilities at a price they can afford so they can earn a decent living. The last time I was there, that was Villeneuve.

But Villeneuve has no facilities for current operators at ECCA to move to! Small operators do not have the $$$ to build at the same time operate at ECCA. Heck many need to rent they cannot afford to buy or build.

This is exactly why there needs to be a push now or the operators you describe will have no choice but to shut down or move out of region and then the industry is gone and likely for good. That is why I am pushing and looking for voices...even anonymous ones to show the need.

We have the private owners who want something free or at least very cheap. Fine wine for the price of cheap beer. That is I believe what Cooking Lake and others have to offer. VFR only is good enough.

And Cooking Lake will be fine for South Side and related and will do well...heck the museum is even looking at a vintage flying operation there.

But Cooking simply does not have space or the room to expand the runway to accommodate much of the need. Villeneuve on the other hand can.

A runway up to 6500' with ILS is possible and there is still room for everything described.

Fort Saskatchewan would be a good idea, just needs someone with very deep pockets to develop something

The Big companies have the control here and it will be what it will be, that said we still need to deal with the other issues for the region.

Thanks for the input

Tom

[Beefitarian]

I believe if there is a business demand and enough noise the Province of Alberta will become involved, they need the alternate as much as anyone else, for medivac.

I agree they should, but the Alberta government doesn't care if it's citizens have the best medivac system or even hospitals in place. Until they become liable somehow and it would be less expensive to build it they won't.

You're right. If big business wanted it it would happen.

The days when the role of the government was to try to make this the best place in the world for everyone are on hold. It doesn't line their pockets with enough money.

Don't get wrong, I like not paying Alberta Health care premiums but, I would gladly pay them if it meant better facilities. Even though I'm a guy and don't go to the Doctor unless it's for sure a problem.

[AEROBAT]

As far as Josephburg is concerned the county has no interest in further immediate development. Edmonton city council caused the problem and they should fix it, but that will never happen.

[azimuthaviation]

Not one penny, for reasons of principal as much as practicality. Nothing bigger than a king air 200 can land there. People think the runways can easily be lengthened because its surrounded by farms? Well do we expect the farmers to donate their land or do we kick them off? And we also have to move the railway too. How far is the tracks from the threshold of runway 12? It's been a while since I landed there but I used to use it as a marker, 100' Agl when over the tracks. Also have to move the quarry (or coal mine?) And the road. No big deal... Or maybe we could have the train going over the runway? We could install those railway gates that drop down when the train comes, that would be unique.

Also I'm not a fan of the medevac idea there. Using zvl and st Albert hospital which is quite close. But those farm roads are narrow and deadly in winter, not a good place to be racing ambulances on winter nights.

[City of Rubes]

I share your concern as I see those effected by the madness are diverging in two unproductive directions.

Many of those I work with are positively cackling with glee every time the redevelopment proposals makes the papers, since with each passing month the project seems to become more and more ridiculous and doomed to eventually being canceled in disgrace. And indeed an Edmonton city planner freely admitted to me the project is a total disaster and driven by "urban zeal" on the part of the mayor, his sycophants on council and outside consultants and nothing else. However it seems riding on the assumption that the redevelopment plan will decisively collapse prior to the airport being closed and ERAA along with mayor and council won't see the airport closed regardless is a dangerous one.

The other faction is made up of those who are just waiting around for the hangman in a persistent state of depression or aren't making any particular plans but when prompted will mutter something about Springbank or Villeneuve or a hypothetical airstrip on the Cree reserve.

I don't know what the answer is, I really don't think it is Villeneuve. Although I was tickled by a conspiracy theory put forward by one of the anti-YXD nutters that the city had to immediate act against a secret plan to build a runway on the CPR yard that was going to have 737's flying to Calgary every 15 minutes and shuttle operating over the Highlevel Bridge that was going to be used to undermine efforts to attract international flights to YEG.

[Prairie Chicken]

ZVL is operated by ERAA. That should be enough said. If you're serious about investing money on the idea, get a copy of their regional airport master plan document and determine if your ideas are in line with theirs. Their vision was never as an alternate to YEG but it may have changed since their vision for YXD is being fulfilled.

ZVL is zoned for parallel runways and has been since TC built it way back when so the land is protected. I believe the zoning also allows for an extended runway but don't recall the details.

Good thoughts; good thread.

[Tom H]

azimuthaviation

First thanks for the comments we need all kind pro and con and political correctness is not required

People think the runways can easily be lengthened because its surrounded by farms? Well do we expect the farmers to donate their land or do we kick them off? And we also have to move the railway too. How far is the tracks from the threshold of runway 12? It's been a while since I landed there but I used to use it as a marker, 100' Agl when over the tracks. Also have to move the quarry (or coal mine?) And the road. No big deal... Or maybe we could have the train going over the runway? We could install those railway gates that drop down when the train comes, that would be unique.

Having checked Vill's foot print is larger than YXD and can accommodate 6000' runways both 12/30 and 16/34 with ILS and markers per Transport Can regs. So nothing has to be moved or farmers displaced.

I would personally encourage a aviation industrial/manufacturing area adjacent to the tracks. How many airports have access to heavy rail and truck routes...it's a big advantage.

Also I'm not a fan of the medevac idea there. Using zvl and st Albert hospital which is quite close. But those farm roads are narrow and deadly in winter, not a good place to be racing ambulances on winter nights.

I agree it is not the best, but what's better?

It is slightly offset by fast access to the Mis with the Henday now in place

azimuthaviation you made this comment

Not one penny, for reasons of principal as much as practicality.

and
Prairie Chicken

ZVL is operated by ERAA. That should be enough said.

made this one...

Is this the problem in getting interest and/or commitment?

If it is we need many more voices to say it...anonymously or not

Prairie Chicken

If you're serious about investing money on the idea, get a copy of their regional airport master plan document and determine if your ideas are in line with theirs. Their vision was never as an alternate to YEG but it may have changed since their vision for YXD is being fulfilled.

ZVL is zoned for parallel runways and has been since TC built it way back when so the land is protected. I believe the zoning also allows for an extended runway but don't recall the details.

Thanks I have and yeah the ideas don't mesh well. Your research/knowledge matches what I have learned about Vill.

Thanks to everyone for your comments.

[Beefitarian]

Also I'm not a fan of the medevac idea there. Using zvl and st Albert hospital which is quite close. But those farm roads are narrow and deadly in winter, not a good place to be racing ambulances on winter nights.

This seems two years and some million dollars away from a multi lane spur connecting the medivac center terminal to Tony Hendy road there.

If someone with money wanted to develop, it could be the best medivac facility in the world and Edmonton international could be a viable alternate airport for when the weather was bad. Old gravel pits make excellent sites to build hospitals.

As for the farmers, if the airport did need that much more space. Do they own the land surrounding it? They might be farming it under some kind of lease agreement.
Someone harvests big round bales of grass feed inside the fence at CYYC that doesn't make it their farm.

If they do own, as bad as it sounds to force them out, they will be able to afford to buy a different farm where medivacs won't be flying over their house at night. Farms farther away from airports and urban centers are less expensive. They might be able to buy a new house and equipment. I understand, sometimes that still upsets someone displacing them from their home but St Albert could potentially expand with similar results to farmers.

ZVL is operated by ERAA. That should be enough said. If you're serious about investing money on the idea, get a copy of their regional airport master plan document and determine if your ideas are in line with theirs. Their vision was never as an alternate to YEG but it may have changed since their vision for YXD is being fulfilled.

Maybe they are waiting for funds from the closure of the muni to develop Vill.

[loopy]

There's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario here, me thinks. Alberta Health is stalling on telling the medevac operators that they will be taking all the patients to YEG. There's no FBO or ILS at ZVL. Some operators based at the muni are hesitating to see of another alternative to YEG exists.

Someone mentioned the poor roads. I like the idea of makeing use of the railway as some one mentioned. However, the province has to give some indication of what they would like. I think EAA really only cares about YEG. They have to be pushed to see that ZVL (or YXD in the past) is of value and a commodity. If the province steps in with some infrastructure development, and/or incentives for private industry to develope, something would happen.

[Tom H]

Beefitarian

Having driven the existing at posted speeds.

Sturgeon General.....16 minutes
Misericordia using Henday connection.....18minutes
Royal Alex using Yellowhead (normal traffic no blockages)...22minutes

When the Henday is stretched in it should be shorter.

The option of upgrading Sturgeon to a full trauma unit makes a ton of sense both for medivac and the surrounding communities. Wonder if their one wing of beds is still closed?

Do they own the land surrounding it?

No according to records it is owned by (2) Gravel companies.

But as I noted up higher 6000' w ILS can happen right on current site both runways.

Maybe they are waiting for funds from the closure of the muni to develop Vill.

According to presentations in Edmonton City Council ERAA received no $$$ from ECCA closing.

Loopy

However, the province has to give some indication of what they would like.

When you bring that up a common response is "we didn't make the problem the City did" Because it's out of the City it's not their problem.

ERAA is the operator and party responsible for Vill.

I think EAA really only cares about YEG.

Do others think that too?

If the province steps in with some infrastructure development, and/or incentives for private industry to develope, something would happen.

I agree which is why I started this thread...to see if others feel the same.

[CMD-A]

Here is a solution to a GA issues in Edmonton:
Fire Mandel and his counselors, keep the City Centre open, re-install ILS on the 34, extend 34 to the north and build an underpass for the Yellow Head to go underneath the airport.
Edmonton City Center is a gem in Canadian aviation, it should not be treated as a cheap empty land to build condos on.
My 2 cents.

[Tom H]

I share your concern as I see those effected by the madness are diverging in two unproductive directions.

Many of those I work with are positively cackling with glee every time the redevelopment proposals makes the papers, since with each passing month the project seems to become more and more ridiculous and doomed to eventually being canceled in disgrace. And indeed an Edmonton city planner freely admitted to me the project is a total disaster and driven by "urban zeal" on the part of the mayor, his sycophants on council and outside consultants and nothing else. However it seems riding on the assumption that the redevelopment plan will decisively collapse prior to the airport being closed and ERAA along with mayor and council won't see the airport closed regardless is a dangerous one.

The other faction is made up of those who are just waiting around for the hangman in a persistent state of depression or aren't making any particular plans but when prompted will mutter something about Springbank or Villeneuve or a hypothetical airstrip on the Cree reserve.

I don't know what the answer is, I really don't think it is Villeneuve. Although I was tickled by a conspiracy theory put forward by one of the anti-YXD nutters that the city had to immediate act against a secret plan to build a runway on the CPR yard that was going to have 737's flying to Calgary every 15 minutes and shuttle operating over the Highlevel Bridge that was going to be used to undermine efforts to attract international flights to YEG.

LOL, How did I miss this post earlier?

Can't say I disagree with anything said and I needed a good laugh

[Prairie Chicken]

The question was asked earlier if we thought ERAA only cared about YEG. The answer to that when they first incorporated was yes; they didn't want the other airports, just YEG. I don't recall how the Muni got included in the deal which was originally part of TC's transfer of their airports to regional airport authorities. ERAA really didn't want to keep YXD open from the very start. I doubt their opinion has changed.

I truly hope the Muni can be saved & restored to it's former capabilities; but I don't hold out much hope.

[Beefitarian]

I'll tell you what the ERAA cares about. Making money!

If the muni was bringing in significant revenue suddenly they would figure out how to send off anyone looking to close it. Same thing if they're running Vill. If it's going to show a profit without cutting into the revenues at the international you'll get lovely facilities. Otherwise it's medivac shmedivac, walk to the hospital if you don't like it.

Here's where I'm annoyed though. The Government feels the same way yet runs Alberta Health. I believe they should be providing the infrastructure at cost. They don't need to show a profit and pay huge salaries to attract crooks that "show talent." Sounds like at some point things were all planned out for Vill back when people in government cared enough to make Canada the best place if the land is zoned and protected for parallel runways.

Trouble is that'sold fashioned and most people want to save $50 a month on taxes until their mom needs care. Then complain, there's no alternate for medivacs.

[Shark]

Hi Tom,

The logical and financial response would be to keep the city centre airport open as it once was. In the end the province will end up paying for the city of Edmonton's dumbfounded decision to close the airport. This will either result in a ton of money going towards CZVL expansion which I highly doubt will happen due to proximity of the city and EIA's agenda. CZVL doesn't even have potable water the last time I was out there let a lone anything remotely close to the proper facilities CYXD has.

EIA=CYYC GAIN

PS. Just wondering why the summer event at the museum is no longer called Air Fest? I see the new name is The Summer of Thunder at the Alberta Aviation Museum?

[Tom H]

The logical and financial response would be to keep the city centre airport open as it once was. In the end the province will end up paying for the city of Edmonton's dumbfounded decision to close the airport. This will either result in a ton of money going towards CZVL expansion which I highly doubt will happen due to proximity of the city and EIA's agenda. CZVL doesn't even have potable water the last time I was out there let a lone anything remotely close to the proper facilities CYXD has.

I agree with everything you are saying Shark, but I don't see anyway to stop the City from closing it.
The Municipal Government Act prohibits the Province from stepping in.
The Feds won't. For whatever reason.

As with many things with politics...it makes no sense and there is no mechanism short of public revolt and protest to stop it...and frankly I don't see that happening.

PS. Just wondering why the summer event at the museum is no longer called Air Fest? I see the new name is The Summer of Thunder at the Alberta Aviation Museum?

Last year was the last Airfest, our one day Fly In/Open House/Static show.
16/34 was the longer runway and we needed it to get the larger feature aircraft in, without it we cannot get aircraft like the CF-18, the Lancaster and others in.

The Lancaster while operationally capable of getting in on 12/30 is restricted to runways over 5000' by insurance and other restrictions.

Same with the CF-18 (I have no idea why they were allowed for Indy and frankly I am still upset about that) and many others.

Privately owned aircraft had been getting harder and harder to get to join us for most of the reasons on here. Aircraft appearance schedules also played a role.

The combination forced us to end Airfest and start doing new things while we still can.

The Summer of Thunder is a series of smaller events that will run June through September, something new we are trying.

The F-86 Hawk One will be here for the Canada Day weekend as will the Vintage Wings of Canada P-51 Mustang and Boeing Stearman

Astronaut Major Jeremy Hansen will doing a FREE presentation geared to children and young people on June 29th 7:00pm, everyone welcome.

Tom