Jammed yoke

[andrew172]

Thank you Colonel Sanders, that link seems to be very useful. I don't answer you because it would be a non-sense offtopic. What I don't understand is why should I read them myself and I was not told about them.

[Colonel Sanders]

I can't say why your instructor didn't point you at good sources of information like Gene Whitt.

I might suggest this specific link, to learn more about aircraft piston engines:

http://www.whittsflying.com/web/page5.7 ... ystems.htm

Again, do you feel bullied here when people give you information like this?

[andrew172]

No, why do you ask that? I clearly stated that I want to learn more useful things, firstly I asked about control jams because I knew I was not trained for, but it seems that also I wasn't trained enough for some other things. I'm open to learn all useful stuff I should know for a safer flight, that's my point.

[trey kule]

Best of luck on your training.

[Genetk44]

Excellent link CS...10 minutes reading really increased my understanding of the engines...Im printing the whole thing out.
Thanks very much.

I can't say why your instructor didn't point you at good sources of information like Gene Whitt.

I might suggest this specific link, to learn more about aircraft piston engines:

http://www.whittsflying.com/web/page5.7 ... ystems.htm

Again, do you feel bullied here when people give you information like this?

[Colonel Sanders]

This is another incredible website:

http://www.sacskyranch.com/trouble_subjects.htm

An amazing amount of information there. Why does
a nosewheel shimmy? Why do fuel tanks feed unevenly?



Here's what Lycoming has to say, about operating their
engines:

http://www.lycoming.com/support/tips-ad ... index.html

Every pilot that flies a Lycoming should read this! It
talks about how you should lean your engine. Power
settings, esp with constant speed props. Carburetor
icing. Use of the boost pump. Shock cooling. Sticking
valves. etc.

You would be amazed how many pilots don't even
know the above publication even exists, and don't have
a clue as to it's contents.

[Colonel Sanders]

Here's a nice article on the aerodynamics of lift:

http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/airflylvl3.htm


Here are a couple more pubs if you have the bandwidth:

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/avia ... 83-25A.pdf

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/avia ... 80T-80.pdf


There is an endless supply of very high quality information
on aviation on the internet!

[Colonel Sanders]

Want to learn how to operate a P&W R-985 radial engine?

http://www.foundationsearch.com/r985/manual.pdf

Finest radial engine I have ever flown behind!

[Colonel Sanders]

Hopefully none of the above has bullied or intimidated
anyone - I hope you feel safe. And, I hope that no one
in the white-shirt/four-bars crowd is offended by any of
the above technical information, and I hope it didn't make
them feel bad about themselves in any way, shape or form.

Here are some articles I have written:

http://www.pittspecials.com/articles.html

Again, I hope their technical content does not cause
widespread clinical depression amongst the types here with
delicate constitutions, fragile self-worth and low self-esteem.

[Shiny Side Up]

Thank you Colonel Sanders, that link seems to be very useful. I don't answer you because it would be a non-sense offtopic. What I don't understand is why should I read them myself and I was not told about them.

The point most people are trying to get across here is that there just isn't enough time to tell a student pilot about everything so your instructors generally will concentrate on the most common issues. I only have a limited time on this earth after all, and you got a limited ammount of money and time to get your private license. The license, as they say, is a license to learn. Personally I learn something new about airplanes all the time, some of which might help one solve the issue that you're concerned with. For example, the latest bit of information squirreled away which might help some day was the differences between the control cables on the Cessna 180 and 185. I had previously assumed they were similar enough, but turns out there are some key differences. Its possible that little bit will never ever be used again during the course of my lifetime, but then again, maybe not.

Something to think about is that the PPL is a pretty general skillset that is given to you. Remember that little chunk of paper lets you fly pretty much every single engined contraption you can think of that uses a fixed wing for lift and doesn't go too fast or carry too many people. That's a lot of different airplanes to prepare you for, we can't assume after all that once you got that piece of paper that you're going to stick with the humble Cessna 172.... Which I might add aren't all the same either, though the differences seem to be magnified in the minds of some.

In my small time as a pilot, I've had a lot of things go wrong with airplanes, some of them minor, some a little more dire. I could compile a list of all of them and what I would rate as your highest probability problem to encounter (incidentally its mag problems when it comes to rental aircraft, most likely fouled ones) and somewhere down the list, way down, is a jammed control yoke, which I have had happen, fortunately we discovered it prior to start up. Some points that have already been mentioned and maybe a few that haven't.

1) It occured immediately after work was done on the airplane - as many here have said. In this case there was a new engine analyser installed and whomever cut the hole in the plastic panel didn't chase down where the extra plastic rolled off to. Guess where it ended up?

2) The jamming at full deflection happened the first time we did a control check on the ground. A good reason to make sure one is thorogh with this bit. One should note that in most planes, for the majority of the private flying that gets done this might be the only time that full deflection to the ailerons might ever be applied. So jamming fully one direction is unlikely in flight with a small airplane since you have to make that input first to get it to jam there. Of course if you're doing aerobatics this will be different, but not really in the realm of PPL training. The point is, if you do get this failure mode, you're more likely to have it happen on the ground before you go flying than in the air - again in run of the mill PPL type flying.

3) There is the possibility that such a jamming can be readily solved. In our case my gorrilla of a student merely forced the controls and broke the offending piece of plastic. I should say I counseled against this, but it was his airplane and he's a grown man who can make his own decisions. Knowing the control set up of the 182 reasonably well, and extrapolating from what was recently done, I figured already what the problem was, but someone couldn't wait for me to get a flashlight and see. I did manage to convince him that we should get an AME to check it out before flight to make sure there wasn't further pieces or damage occured during his solution.

[Colonel Sanders]

that little chunk of paper lets you fly pretty much every single engined contraption you can think of that uses a fixed wing for lift and doesn't go too fast or carry too many people. That's a lot of different airplanes to prepare you for

This is an incredibly important lesson. There is the paper world, and the real world. All too many low-time pilots think that because they are legal (qualified on paper) to do something in an airplane, it must be safe. Nothing could be farther from the truth. A couple of private pilots in Ottawa learned that lesson last winter, when they died trying to fly the ILS 7.

Just because it's legal, doesn't make it safe. Just because it's safe, doesn't make it legal. You must understand the importance between the paper world, and the real world. They are only loosely coupled.

You must respect the paper world, and have all your bits of paper ready for the ramp inspection, otherwise you will be in a world of legal pain.

But you must also respect the real, physical world that can kill you. You must learn all you can about the kind of flying that you are going to do.

It is up to you, to remain alive while you exercise the privileges of your PPL. People crash and die all the time with their paperwork in perfect order, which puzzles some people. How, they wonder, could such a thing possibly happen?

PS No small, furry creatures were harmed, bullied or injured in any way, shape or form during the creation of this post.

[Shiny Side Up]

You must learn all you can about the kind of flying that you are going to do.

Note (to the OP) where the onus is here. I can applaud that any student would want to learn about what this topic is about. That being said though it is of a relatively lower priority given the level of the student or the scope of the training involved. By necessity the PPL and the CPL are very general in their scope rather than specific. Its all about maximising time and effort. For example, if one was to say get an hour of a very experienced pilot's time to learn from, lets say you got to sit with Bob Hoover for a bit (or even better an hour in the airplane), what would you ask him about to maximise the useful knowledge transfer? What would you want to practice? I could think of a long list of things that would improve my abilities as a pilot, and hence my ability to fly safely, and control column failures would probably be pretty far down that list. Incidentally the correct answer for first item on the list with Bob Hoover would be how to correctly pour iced tea.

[Gannet167]

Andrew172, although the scenario you describe is pretty outlandish, you've asked a good question that shows you are thinking and not just doing things by rote memorization or robotic input = output. You're looking for a more in depth understanding and that's the right attitude and approach to have in aviation.

Even if this scenario (as you yourself correctly pointed out, only to have everyone additionally re-point out is a really low probability event) asking the question is a useful exercise in thinking through the various forces on an aircraft in flight and building a better understanding of how they interact with one another, as well as understanding how you would handle a situation.

As has been pointed out, there have been several instances of control problems and there have been successful and very catastrophically bad outcomes, depending on the nature of the failure and how it was handled - so, it is a valid discussion. I have flown a few airplanes with checklists specifically for "Jammed Controls" so at least a few manufacturers have identified this scenario and have some procedures to try and handle it.

I'm sure you have been trained on how to handle other emergencies and there is a wealth of knowledge in this forum on how to handle them (and, how not to). So to try to answer your original question and not just tell you to forget it and focus on other emergencies (which, I'm sure you have learned and are well versed in for your level) I believe the only answer is: it depends. It depends on the aircraft, the type of failure, the C of G, your airspeed, the density of the air you're flying in, the trim setting, your reaction time, how much extra thrust you have, flap setting, how many dead bugs are on the wing leading edge, etc. etc. etc. Without specific parameters and a computer simulation or to actually flight test this type of event, it would be difficult to give you a definitive answer.

It's a good question in my opinion and although you're probably statistically more likely to have 100 engine failures before you see this scenario, it's worth having a discussion about it to further knowledge. I know a few guys who landed a King Air once, so iced up that they had almost lost any ability to control the aircraft - and so understanding things like these flight control characteristics could be useful one day - even if it ins't for a jammed control. Maybe you'll be piloting a DC-10 some day, lose your hydraulics and have to re-invent how to fly using trim and differential thrust. Thinking through these kinds of scenarios builds exactly the sort of problem solving skills and rich understanding of aerodynamics that could one day save your life, even if the chances of what you originally asked are fairly low.

I hope you keep asking questions.

[KK7]

Andrew172,

I just want to tell you that I hope you have a better instructor than those who ridicule you on here for asking questions, however outlandish or not. Your time with your instructor may be limited and you may have to focus on more likely scenarios, but normally I would say what better place to discuss your thoughts and ideas for free about less likely scenarios on a forum of experienced pilots who may have experienced similar scenarios. Frankly some of the responses from folks I used to regard as good instructors on this forum, makes me feel a little ashamed. There are many questions I should have asked when I was a student, but was too inexperienced to ask.

Discussing impossible and improbable scenarios is something pilots do throughout their career as they encounter them, apparently some on this forum think it's appropriate to exclude less experienced pilots.

Good luck with your training, and keep asking questions!

[Colonel Sanders]

Frankly some of the responses from folks I used to regard as good instructors on this forum, makes me feel a little ashamed.

Sigh. KK7, there is more to aviation than just feelings.

The kid asked a question here, and for absolutely no cost he received a wealth of information that he was previously unaware of. It might not have been delivered with as much smiling, hugging, nuzzling and affectionate kissing as you are accustomed to from your mentors, but I think he got one heckuva good deal and plenty of great advice - for free!

If the most important thing to you is to get stroked, well, time to pay a few bucks and go to the same places as Jack Layton frequented.

[Beefitarian]

If the most important thing to you is to get stroked, well, time to pay a few bucks and go to the same places as Jack Layton frequented.

Do they rent 172s, what are their rates?

[trey kule]

I was going to refraim from commenting anymore on this thread, but alas...I am weak.....and verbose.
My comments are not directed at the OP, so I hope he will forgive me speaking of him in the third person.

The original post was from a new student pilot with , with, as I understand it, about 10hrs TT. Some of us old and grizzled types (I dont hold a current instructor rating) looked at where he was in his aviation career, the type of question he asked, and chose to not answer it directly.
Instead , and I speak for myself, but I interpret from some of the other posts that others had similar thoughts, was to try and refocus his inquisitivity to thinking about questions that are more appropriate for the stage in his career.
He is not going to be flying solo for some time..And flying training is much more than just stick and rudder skills. It is knowledge...BPF asked some questions that were pertinant to his level..His answers came up a bit short, and although I got the impression he felt this was entirely his instructors fault, I think BPF was, in his own way trying to refocus his attention to things like fuel contamination, proper run up techniques, and knowing what the actual reason we look for limits and variance on mags. I think it is fair to say that many instructors who can tell you all about SOP's, major carriers hiring qualifications etc, could not tell you what that is all about either. Personally, I dont like to see someone answer a question incorrectly and they say it was someone elses fault , or that others did not know the answer so it was OK.
It was a bit surprising to me, then , that people posted their indignation that old gizzers are ridiculing questions.
That simply is not true. What us old gizzers were trying to suggest is that at this stage of his flying he would be well advised to focus on the issues necessary to get a solid foundation, and plan for the most probable problems that he will soon encounter......and then.....think of the improbable ones. That is not to minimize the question or suggest he not think about things, but rather suggest he might better think of more appropriate things right now..
I actually thought that was damned good advice. Whether he will take or not, who knows.
And CS posted some very good links...The lycoming link used to be mandatory reading for initial groundschool for all our pilots when I worked up north. Surprising how many CPLs actually learned alot from that.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with pondering on how to deal with a jammed rudder. But perhaps it would be something one should ponder about after they have pondered on the basics a bit...

BTW..as to the incredable feat of landing a King Air totally iced up...Maybe a bit of pondering on how to avoid or exit icing conditions would have been a better option for that crew....How does that old saying go....A superior pilot learns not to put themselves in situations where they need their superior skills.

[Colonel Sanders]

If the very gentle - compared to elsewhere on the internet,
and this website - suggestions from the Old Guys makes
the New Guy burst into tears and run out of the room, and
jump on his bed and cry facedown into his pillow, well, perhaps
he should consider something other than aviation.

If you keep flying long enough, sooner or later you're going
to end up in a tense situation in the cockpit - eg runaway
Hobbs meter - and bursting into tears is probably not the
best action to take.

[andrew172]

Ok Colonel Sanders, you gave me useful stuff to read, thank you very much for that, but now you just keep writing the same sarcastic idea. Stop it. It's just useless. Maybe you are waiting for a malicious reply, I won't give you one, it's smarter this way. It is obvious that you exaggerate in an unproductive manner. I hope some of your posts will be removed by a moderator. Be sure that the caustic greeting that some of you, old guys, use to do to new students, keen to learn, won't keep me away from aviation. As you can see, there are people who understand better what interesed me, so if you still want to help me with something on the topic, please do it, otherwise please don't flood it with garbage. I thank you again and I hope this will be the last off-topic post!

[Colonel Sanders]

Son: in case you haven't noticed it, this thread
isn't entirely about you any more.

When someone posts something to the internet,
many different people read it - not just the OP -
and in fact they become the target audience.

Aviation, for me at least, is about technical knowledge,
skills and competence. Fluffing egos, while it is
tremendously important to some, is 'way down on
the priority list for me.

Developing a slightly thicker skin is something that
will help you later in life, not only in aviation, but in
other pursuits.

In my life, I have met all kinds of slimy bureaucrats,
prevaricating and totally unethical lawyers, and nasty,
vicious senior corporate management of multi-national
multi-billion dollar corporations that make me look like
Mother F__king Theresa.

They truly enjoyed inflicting damage upon other people -
it wasn't just about advancing their own agenda. I
learned a great deal about human nature from them.

This website, with it's moderator-rounded corners, is
a veritable Fisher-Price playpen. Safe and gentle. The
real world, not so much.

Again, this post isn't just about you. I might note that
the Air Canada Pilot's Association has similar struggles,
trying to deal with the Big Bad Nasty Real World.

[Colonel Sanders]

Be sure that the caustic greeting that some of you, old guys, use to do to new students,keen to learn, won't keep me away from aviation.

A wee bit of perspective. A friend of mine - dead for years now - learned to fly after WWII with an ex-fighter pilot as his instructor.

Sounds great, doesn't it? Well, his instructor was a something of an alcoholic. He would buy a case of beer before each lesson, and load it into the airplane, and proceed to get drunk and drink the case of beer during the lesson, and would throw the empties out the window.

Fisher-price playpen, indeed.

[Shiny Side Up]

Aviation, for me at least, is about technical knowledge,
skills and competence.

One of the skills disappearing out there as evidenced by this thread is the human ability to problem solve in real time, which is the real key to dealing with the control malfunction. The internet has been double edged in this regard. On one side its been a boon to those who wish to increase their knowledge, on the other its been a crutch so people no longer bother figuring stuff out themselves - its too easy to look it up rather than commit it to memory. Cel phones are another aspect that have largely eroded one of the treasured traits I find pilots need to have and that's the capability for independant action and thought (this has been one of the nightmares of new hires as its really tough to find out who can be left on their own and who can't). Most pilots I find these days can't troubleshoot a comm panel nevermind a control failure.

Problem solving really is ones ability to extrapolate possible solutions given previous knowledge, known symptoms and variables present. In the case of the control jam, there may be multiple ways to "skin the cat" each equally valid. The possible ways it might happen are really too numerous - I could think of probably at least a dozen off hand, and given time I could make an inexaustible list - and that's only if I just took into account the airplane types I'm familiar with. To start problem solving one really needs to be able to take that long list and assign a list of probabilities to each possibility determine which possible solution(s) are most likely to get the desired results or which solutions are possible to execute in the time allowed. Time is often the big factor that people don't do well with when pressed. You have limited fuel, or limited altitude to lose to figure it out.

Ones ability to problem solve in an airplane should increase with familiarity with said airplane. I should say that often control failure aren't visited as excersises since to really be able to solve the problem, there are no golden hammer solutions. The excersise isn't to remember a procedure, its (as said before) to work your brain. Its possible that to some problems there are no viable solutions, as the pilot its your job to hopefully explore heroically all the possibilities until the time is up. As a pilot you're going to be at the pointy end, when it comes your time at the plate the excuses "no one told me" and "I didn't think I would have to read that" aren't going to stand up.

[Beefitarian]

If you keep flying long enough, sooner or later you're going
to end up in a tense situation in the cockpit - eg runaway
Hobbs meter - and bursting into tears is probably not the
best action to take.

I think that is an acceptable response in that case. Next I would wipe the tears on my sleeve, land at an alternate airport and abandon the airplane.