A question for Colonel Sanders.

[Indanao]

Well, your ignoring all the facts. As indicated I have done a fair amount of work as a Freelance Flying Instructor.

The way the Flying Instructor business works in Canada, is that first you get a Class IV, then maybe a Class III, Class II, and Class I. When you recommend a Student for a Flight Test they must be Tested by either a Designated Flight Test Examiner, or a Transport Canada Inspector. If the Student fails anything, it goes on that Instructors permanent record. Too many failures make it impossible for the Class III to upgrade in Class on his next Renewal. That is the very same at an FTU with OC. So, the argument that the quality of the Instruction at an FTU with OC is any better than that provided by a Freelance Flying Instructor is nonsense.

[Shiny Side Up]

Well, your ignoring all the facts. As indicated I have done a fair amount of work as a Freelance Flying Instructor.

Which ones am I ignoring? Like I said, you don't want to get me going.

The way the Flying Instructor business works in Canada, is that first you get a Class IV, then maybe a Class III, Class II, and Class I. When you recommend a Student for a Flight Test they must be Tested by either a Designated Flight Test Examiner, or a Transport Canada Inspector. If the Student fails anything, it goes on that Instructors permanent record. Too many failures make it impossible for the Class III to upgrade in Class on his next Renewal. That is the very same at an FCO with OC. So, the argument that the quality of the Instruction at an FCO with OC is any better than that provided by a Freelance Flying Instructor is nonsense.

First, the quality of the instruction isn't often the issue. What is the issue is the full package often of getting a student pilot their license. The reccomendation process is the only oversight that a freelance instructor has. If a freelancer does not reccomend the student though, where is the check on the quality? This rears its head in two main places, first in advanced instruction, IFR, conversion training and night training. If I only had a penny for every student an instructor freelancer has left high and dry without fulfilling or even making sure the student was informed of the requirements of their training. Secondly and less frequently, but in my opinion more grievious, are students left with incomplete PPL or Rec training. In a lot of cases the freelancer might as well have been selling candy out of a van in an kindergaten parking lot. Unfortunate customers who largely know nothing of the process, and get taken advantage of. Not to say that schools don't do this too, but in that case the student/customer has some avenue of recourse, though notably most don't take it - which is unfortunate, but separate issue. In the case of a freelancer there is no recourse and TC just doesn't care. If I find out a FTU fucked something up, I can get TC on them like a fat kid on a smartie. If it was a freelancer, its a different story.

Here's my advise for any new student pilot when deciding to hire a freelancer: get as much paper from them as you can. Get receipts, fill out your log and keep track of your PTR like a hawk. Do your research and if something seems fishy call TC and ask. The same could be said of a FTU. Technically, every freelancer doing work for student for the issue of any piece of TC paper should be travelling in a cube van with all the records they are required to keep on file for their training. I've yet to see this.

[Indanao]

You have yet to see what a, " Cube Van "? That is the nonsense I was talking about.

About half the students who start out complete their training due to money, motivation, time, etc.etc.
Same with a Freelancer. But, that doesnt mean they cannot complete their training. Just like if you quit
an FTU as a Student - get you Logbook endorsed and go elsewhere to complete.

What oversight are you talking about? I just showed you where the oversight is coming from. What oversight
does the CFI at an FTU with OC have? Why should you be able to get TC to get all over anybody, " like
a fat kid on a smartie "? Where did you get your appointment?

Just about every Student who doesn't complete will have bad things to say about the FTU with or without OC.
It would be nice to know what Instructing experience you actaully have to justify your comments.

Never mind the, " don't get me going" crap. Get going and state your case! ( On second thought, I may leave this for people with more current experiences.)

[Colonel Sanders]

An FTU OC is no guarantee of quality, or of ethics. There
have been some very, very evil FTU's that have taken
student's money - large amounts of it - and shut their
doors. I can name some names but that just gets the
thread yanked.

I'm not sure that FUD is a good product to sell. Just like
there are bad FTU's, there are bad freelancers. Not sure
that either is a good reason to give up on aviation.

[Shiny Side Up]

Ok now I'm just wondering if you're trolling, I don't really care though. You want details, fine.

You have yet to see what a, " Cube Van "? That is the nonsense I was talking about.

About half the students who start out complete their training due to money, motivation, time, etc.etc.
Same with a Freelancer. But, that doesnt mean they cannot complete their training. Just like if you quit
an FTU as a Student - get you Logbook endorsed and go elsewhere to complete.

Question for you. When a freelance instructor works with a student towards a PPL, who keeps track of authorization of the flights? Home work: reference CAR 405.32. What might you need somewhere to access and store a lot of files on hand? (hint: some sort of large vehicle would be handy if you were a really busy freelance flight instructor).

Note that CAR 405.33 is frequently broken by freelancers. Specifically section (2), which accounts for the majority of my grievances. You might be seeing a trend here in that freelance instructors tend to be exceedingly poor on the paper side of flight training. I will give a caveat to that statement in that usually the best freelancers I've encountered are a) very good at keeping the paper in order bless their souls or b) do the type of training that doesn't require a lot of paper i.e.: type conversion or other advanced stuff. Unfortunately these number in the few.

What oversight are you talking about? I just showed you where the oversight is coming from. What oversight
does the CFI at an FTU with OC have?

Tell me of one freelance flight instructor that gets a twice a year personal visit from TC to review all their stuff.

Why should you be able to get TC to get all over anybody, " like
a fat kid on a smartie "? Where did you get your appointment?

Everyone has this capability, few people excersise it. Since I'm an AP though, I occasionally go to bat for students whom I find out have been wronged in their flight training. I do this pro bono incidentally since it pisses me off that there are instructors who give the rest of us a bad name. I will only do this however if the student has a case, and is wishes for it to happen. Stunningly few students will lodge an official complaint about their instructor no matter how badly they were wronged. I will say that this goes for FTUs as well, that students are very unwilling to complain about their school or instructor when ther have been some very serious issues. TC won't do nothing if no one says anything, some schools and freelance instructors I suspect count upon this to stay in business.

Get going and state your case!

Here's a list of fun stuff I've found that people thought they could smoke through the licensing process, or didn't feel the need to inform their student of. Unfortunately as an AP its becomes my job to deliver bad paperwork news to lots of people that get sent my way looking to get their paper in their hands, or who are having trouble getting said paper.

1) No PTR, lost PTR, incomplete PTRs. At least a dozen time I've had someone inquire what there is to be done about their problem in this regard. This is never a problem with FTUs I should add, if the student is missing it I can usually track it down for them. Try to chase down an instructor that's got a new job up north who happens to be in the posession of a PTR. If a student also hasn't been dilligent with his log book, well the clock is ticking. Note thatstudents share somewhat in the complicity, but legally the onus fall on the instructor to comply with (1), (2) and (3) of 405.33. If it doesn't show up in a PTR than as an AP I can't submit an application or sign any temp priviledges. This has occasionally resulted in student. repeating training to meet the licensing standards or having to redo flight tests when the submission time expired.

2) Licensing standards not met. Very frequently is this a problem. Freelancers often do not inform or ensure that students meet all requirements before they send them my way to get a license. Check CAR 405.11. The Colonel is very often on about people not being issued FTGs for training, guess who's responsibility it is? Note also CAR 405.14. Wondering what a freelance instructor might need a cube van for? For starters how about lugging around a copy of the FIG, the FTM and the associated human factors manual. Stuff I might add are things as a FTU I'm require to show a TC inspector each time they visit. That's not all of the documantation I might add that is generally required to be on hand. Notably TC does accept internet access to the online versions of these to be acceptable, so at the very least a Freelancer should be packing around a laptop with some sort of access when doing training.

One of the things I've found is that freelancers don't like supervising the solo practice of their students, so I get frequent requests for students to rent the airplanes to complete stuff like their solo cross countries and night circuits. Often of course they are dismayed when they discover that they have to do some dual time before this. More problematic is that TC won't accept license submissions without some evidence that solo practice was adequately supervised - remember 405.32? Did your freelancer keep a record of you being authorized to go solo?

3) Use of training aircraft. Odd ball one that crops up. One freelancer who used to frequent the area used to do this all the time. Notably 425.23 (3), (4), (5), (6) and (7). You know that little bit on the rating application where it asks what registration marks the training aircraft were? Don't people ever think TC checks this? Use of ultralights to credit airplane time is another.

4) Dare I mention violation of CAR 406.03? I should say that I don't agree with that particular hamstringing of the availability of flight training in this country. My opinion in that matter is irrelevant though, when instructors break it, its the customer/student that often pays the price. In one particularly heinous example, when caught doing this, said instructor got out of it by claiming that the student had not paid for any training and that all flights were just for fun rather than towards the student's license. The student foolishly had paid in cash and had no receipts - i.e.: no proof that they had indeed paid for the service, so TC dropped the investigation. I should say that this particular excellent freelancer got away with this twice, that I know of, possibly more.

I'm not sure that FUD is a good product to sell. Just like
there are bad FTU's, there are bad freelancers. Not sure
that either is a good reason to give up on aviation.

One might note in my posts that I ain't too happy with what some FTUs are doing either, but each path seems to have its own pitfalls. You can call it FUD if you want, but its my opinion that a lot of people need to be way more choosy and cautious when choosing their flight training in this country.

[Indanao]

Yes, the government works on paper. Certain ones required for issue of a license. That has always been the case, but changes over time. I have never seen an Instructor not produce this paperwork. Flight Training Manual, etc. do not require a Cube Van although there are those of you who would like to see such restrictions. Guess the only way to resolve it would be to check your work.

And, I continue to believe the Instruction from Freelance Instructors is usually superior. They have more time to spend with the Student ( Off The Clock. ) , often train in remote areas getting more bang for the buck due to less traffic restrictions, and they probably have a higher chance of completing the program as the Instructor is more flexible.

Oversight is a non issue, for reasons given. No, Transport may not visit twice a year - if it took that long to get a license they should go to an FTU with OC. Only valid reason you have given for favor of an Instructor at an FTU is lack of paper. Will that paper make the Student a better Pilot? I bet there are a couple of Freelancers with better paperwork than you have ever done. But, you contend FTUs are more efficient at paperwork. That's unproved, and just your conclusion.

You haven't shown me how the quality of Instruction is better either way.

[Cat Driver]

I wonder what quality of pilot you would end up with if someone went to an old retired pilot who had spent a life time flying for a living and went from zero hours to forty five hours using a J3 Cub flying from a farm strip for most of the training?

Could that be done without having the FTM, the Flight Instructors Guide and all the other stuff so worshiped in the flight training industry?

[Colonel Sanders]

SSU: I am willing to admit that you have witnessed many
sins of freelancers. However, take all that and multiply it by
100x, and that still doesn't touch Maylan.

They came to London from China with the dream of
flying as commercial pilots.

But now, after forking over as much as $55,000 tuition to
make the dream come true, more than 60 students of
London’s Maylan Flight Acadamy are facing an uncertain future.

RCMP are looking for the owner of a London flight academy
in relation to a bankruptcy investigation. The RCMP has issued an
arrest warrant for Davi Joe, 42. Anyone with information on his
whereabouts is asked to call the London RCMP at 519-645-4329
or Crime Stoppers anonymously at 1-800-222-TIPS.

You might quite reasonably ask how the Chinese students managed
to pass the Transport Canada written exams, which as we all know,
are a real struggle (and a language test) for those of us who have
English as our mother tongue. Imagine trying to write your tests
in Mandarin!

Think about that one, for a while.

[Indanao]

Never really heard of an, " AP " . Sounds important when you hear that guy talk about it. Does it require an Instructor Rating? No.

[Shiny Side Up]

SSU: I am willing to admit that you have witnessed many
sins of freelancers. However, take all that and multiply it by
100x, and that still doesn't touch Maylan.

You know what Colonel, I fully agree with you. I ain't arguing that flight schools aren't bad though, they just commit different sins. Any violation of the training agreement between an instructor and his student is equally evil, none more so than the others. Is Mr. Joe really much worse than a freelancer that I know who has screwed multiple students out of various ammounts of cash (in some cases in the thousands) yet is still out there at work? Every flight school isn't a Maylan, just like every freelancer ain't this unnamed fellow, but you wouldn't know it from the crowd here. So when I see stuff like:

Why do so many instructors at FTUs get their panties in a twist about freelancers? That's the better question.

What's the friggin mystery? Is it really hard to admit there's as many bad instructors working outside of FTUs as there are within? The main difference from what I see is the modus operandi of the two groups. Each option has problems more endemic to each to watch out for. For instance I rarely see bad paperwork come out of the schools, they at least know enough to bombard the students with that small blessing. Quality of instruction is a different matter. Emphasis there for indanao sake since he apparently can't read.

I get real tired of being vilified for working for a FTU - which is always acceptable on this website - but holy hell you better not say anything bad about the blessed act of freelancing. Its frequently postulated that it is emminently preferable to get one if you can afford to get the airplane, which it just ain't that cut and dried.

Never really heard of an, " AP " . Sounds important when you hear that guy talk about it. Does it require an Instructor Rating? No.

Well its good that you obviously don't instruct much or you would know that somewhere along the line your students would need the services of one. If you do instruct, well then that makes my case pretty well for me.

I wonder what quality of pilot you would end up with if someone went to an old retired pilot who had spent a life time flying for a living and went from zero hours to forty five hours using a J3 Cub flying from a farm strip for most of the training?

Could that be done without having the FTM, the Flight Instructors Guide and all the other stuff so worshiped in the flight training industry?

That's fine and dandy Cat, and he would probably be a pretty excellent teacher. But if someone from TC happened upon the field one day while they were training, without it he could face a stiff fine over it and worse we would lose that training resourse. I don't like pushing paper and you don't, but unless we can get the rules to change, I hope that old retired pilot also does that for our student too. I hopefully would never have this conversation.

"Hey I did all my training with this old guy who knew everything about cubs!"

"That's really awesome, did you pass your flight test?"

"Yup, it was easy with the awesome skills I learned"

"And your written?"

"Yup, scored a %100"

"Great lets see your PTR and we can get you signed off."

"P... T... what?"

"Ok please tell me you kept a logbook?"

"My pilot didn't say nothing about that."

[Indanao]

So. Do you have an Instructor Rating or not ?

[Colonel Sanders]

uh ... SSU, BPF and I are all class 1 instructors and either are
currently or have been Chief Flight Instructors at many different
FTU's over the decades. BPF and I are also class 1 aerobatic
instructors. Not sure what ratings have to do with the conversation,
though.

The ironic thing is what bugs SSU (FTU flagwaver) about freelance
is that he doesn't think it's a level playing field.

But that's exactly the same complaint that freelancers have about
FTU's - it not a level playing field.

Kind of funny, huh?

Most experienced instructors eventually end up wearing both hats -
FTU and freelance - and use whichever makes sense at the time.

[niwre]

Just in the midst of my Class I upgrade, have held a class II aerobatics instructor rating.


@SSU don't get me wrong, I work at an FTU myself and love it. I've just noticed that some instructors not necessarily on avcanada get offended if there is a freelancer at an airfield as well.

We all have to work together, I find that we eat our young in this industry too quickly.

[Beefitarian]

I think there may be more good freelance instructors than bad. It's just you never hear about them. If I have a great experience flying my own plane with a great freelance guy, I never go back to the Strathmore flying club, I tell my wife how happy I am to save the $100 a year on their membership fee.

Conversely if I'm the next victim of the freelance guy everyone else knew about. Once I find a school I'm happy with I complain bitterly about the guy.


The benefit to an instructor working at a flight training unit is access to planes to use for students off the street that don't own one. Hopefully more volume due to the school's ads or reputation.

The benefit to a good instructor working freelance is not having to share the hourly rate with a school.

The benefit to a bad instructor working freelance is no CFI to fire them.

[Beefitarian]

The other problem I noticed in the past was you hear about the good freelance instructors in a way that's not relevant to real life, like after they no longer teach, are much too far away or even way too busy.

Hey do you know a good freelance guy near Elkford?

Indanao was the best instructor in Saskatchewan. Too bad he moved on or you could take your PPL training with him if he could fit you in.

Thanks.

[Bede]

When I was a CFI I allowed our instructors to work freelance and use our facilities. We were in no position to give bonuses, so this was our way of saying thanks.

From my experience, freelancers are usually more experienced and instructor for the fun of it. While there may be good instructor's at FTU's, the one's most students will get will be brand new. The paperwork may be stellar, but the important stuff is not.

[Shiny Side Up]

uh ... SSU, BPF and I are all class 1 instructors and either are
currently or have been Chief Flight Instructors at many different
FTU's over the decades.

Knowing that is why I always find it interesting that you in particular have generally nothing good to say about anyone who works for a FTU.

The ironic thing is what bugs SSU (FTU flagwaver) about freelance
is that he doesn't think it's a level playing field.

Not quite, I largely don't care whether one thinks it is fair, the system isn't going to change. What cheeses me off is how in general its acceptable to run down instructors and schools within the pilot community, and in particular on this website.

But that's exactly the same complaint that freelancers have about
FTU's - it not a level playing field.

Its not level and I have my own beefs about that. But more so because the current system encourages both FTUs and Freelancers to be at a poorer level, it needs to improve both sides of it, rather than just tilt it more in favor of the other. In some regards FTUs do have a big advantage over freelancers, but there are also things that favor freelancers as well.

Most experienced instructors eventually end up wearing both hats -
FTU and freelance - and use whichever makes sense at the time.

Not disagreeing there, and I have no problems with people doing it. I do find it pretty two faced when an instructor who does work for a school turns around and bad mouths schools when he finds it convinient though. Which I'll add to my general dislike of most of the freelancers I've encountered, you let them use your shelter, plug your toilet and then they have the nerve to bad mouth you to your students under your own roof - because again its cool in the pilot world to run down a FTU.

@SSU don't get me wrong, I work at an FTU myself and love it. I've just noticed that some instructors not necessarily on avcanada get offended if there is a freelancer at an airfield as well.

I see that and appologise if I'm getting too wound up, it was not necessarily against you. To put it short, its possible that they might be familiar with the work of a particular freelancer, don't assume - as many here do - that a freelancer automatically falls into the stereotype that is often held up here. Freelancers run the full range just like any other group of pilots or people do. There's good and bad.

We all have to work together, I find that we eat our young in this industry too quickly.

Very true. Part of the reason this bugs me so much.

From my experience, freelancers are usually more experienced and instructor for the fun of it. While there may be good instructor's at FTU's, the one's most students will get will be brand new. The paperwork may be stellar, but the important stuff is not.

Here's the thing though Bede, it would be a rare fellow who would both be an experienced instructor and want to do a bunch of ab initio training for the fun of it. Even the Colonel will admit that. Experienced instructors who are also skilled will generally be out to do more challenging things, or at the very least more interested in only dealing with family and friends. Ab initio (new PPL and RPP) students also don't tend to pay well either - I do frequently get requests to go outside the school and freelance for someone on this, but the offer is often far lower than what I or any other school instructor would make. So one does wonder if there's a fellow around trying to drum up a bunch of ab initio type freelance work, he either really loves it (unlikely if he has done a lot of it) or is really desperate for it. I've seen a lot of the latter. All of these guys:

old retired pilot who had spent a life time flying for a living

Aren't taking on new students of that level. Of the four very experienced freelancers I know, 3 of them primarily do aerobatic and tailwheel stuff, the fourth primarily IFR and multi stuff. Lets face it, unless you know someone, whether you go freelance or the FTU route, you're likely to get a "new" instructor.

[Indanao]

OK.... your depending on an FTU with OC for your income, guess that is where your, " bias slant " comes from. I have never really heard a Freelancer putting down FTUs...but I sure hear your nonsense. Enjoy. ( AP..did you make that up or what. )

[Indanao]

Paper zealots often find their way into Transport Canada. The old joke is that with all the a@@holes in there, they have a good use for you.

[Colonel Sanders]

you in particular have generally nothing good to say about anyone who works for a FTU

I honestly have no idea where you got that. I am no fan of the paperwork monstrosity required for an FTU, but I have spent an inordinate amount of my life keeping them going over the decades in order to promote ab initio flight training, which everyone seems to easily forget, is essential to aviation.

Every instructor in Canada has spent his first 100+ dual-given hours at an FTU, getting his class 3 instructor rating. I try to be the best mentor I can, to these new instructors.

What cheeses me off is how in general its acceptable to run down instructors

Meh. Lots of people don't think I'm a very good pilot compared to them, because I keep a current class 1 instructor and class 1 aerobatic instructor rating. Like I could give a sh1t what those morons think.