Bowers Fly Baby

[AEROBAT]

dave,

Some of those bargains can cost you a whole lot by the time you import it into Canada. A friend bought a Cessna 180 on floats out of Alaska and by the time he was done, over $9000, getting it squared away with TC's blessing he could have bought the same localy. Homebuilts with over 100 hours on the logbook are pretty easy though.

[N2]

I have a solid little cherokee 140 that I am selling, still plenty of life left in her and has been well treated. Engine on condition due to time from overhaul TTOE 1100 but runs like a champ and STC'd for mogas.

[JayVee]

How about a Pitts 4N? There aren't too many flying, but it seems like it would be fun. 2 front seats and a bench seat in the back, plus they removed that pesky tailwheel and stuck a nosewheel up front.

[Beefitarian]

Conventional gear.

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetai ... 234701.htm?

[Grantmac]

I've been told to budget $5K to import my incredibly simple aircraft, way less systems then your average 152/172/140. That is paying for someone else to do the paperwork though.

Experimentals are substantially easier and I've thought about selling and taking a massive hit to get into one. Ultimately though I like the idea of being able to do most of my CPL on this aircraft if I ever get the itch.

-Grant

[Beefitarian]

The rules on keeping it registered in the US are stricter now I'm guessing. There used to be guys that did that, then just flew the plane back across the border a few times a year. Sounds like TC has made it more difficult or something though. Not surprising, planes seem quite a bit less expensive there.

[Grantmac]

The rules on keeping it registered in the US are stricter now I'm guessing. There used to be guys that did that, then just flew the plane back across the border a few times a year. Sounds like TC has made it more difficult or something though. Not surprising, planes seem quite a bit less expensive there.

Actually it was the insurance that killed that idea. Nobody wanted to touch it. TC didn't seem to care all that much.

Everything else was a damn sight cheaper down south, and I'm likely to get all my work done in the US (with the exception of my Annual of course). Finding people who actually know how to work on old planes can be a major issue.

-Grant

[Beefitarian]

Parts must be difficult at times too. You can't just make something for certain airplane systems you need certification to use them, correct? I recall reading about someone buying tires but they did not get the paperwork so could not use them on their airplane.

[dave_091]

Parts must be difficult at times too. You can't just make something for certain airplane systems you need certification to use them, correct? I recall reading about someone buying tires but they did not get the paperwork so could not use them on their airplane.

In the military every part we install on a aircraft must come with a certificate of conformance. If there is no certificate of conformance then I cant install the part because I don't know what condition its in. Its for everyones safety.

[Beefitarian]

You can tell a tire is new because there are little bristles on the surface that wear off very quickly.

The certification is intended to prove the tire was manufactured for use on an airplane by a certain factory using high quality materials.

The issue can be the same tire with no paper costs much less. The extra cost sometimes is for insurance. Sometimes the part is actually a better material. Sometimes it's just because they can charge more since you need to have the paper.

[Beefitarian]

Now I missed the point. Getting a certified door handle for a new plane is easy because they still make parts. Getting one for a common plane is easy because someone else might make parts. Getting one for your Hughes H-1 is difficult.

[Grantmac]

Now I missed the point. Getting a certified door handle for a new plane is easy because they still make parts. Getting one for a common plane is easy because someone else might make parts. Getting one for your Hughes H-1 is difficult.

I can get almost any part of my aircraft from a variety of vendors all complete with correct paperwork. Mainly because Piper used the same parts for basically every fabric plane they ever produced.

What DOES stink is having a plane that was only produced for 1 year because the aftermarket is extremely thin. Finding STCs to do what you want is nearly impossible, like fitting a newer prop design or bigger tires. The worst part is the planes are nearly identical in the important ways, the companies just don't want to do the paperwork for your specific model.

-Grant

[Beefitarian]

Unless we pay them enough money. Then they would be happy to get the lawyers to certify all sorts of things. That of course is the opposite of where we started on this thread hoping to save money.

[Kilo-Kilo]

With the prices of 150's and 172's in the states I am seriously considering going south of the border for a purchase. Since 150's are pretty much disposable at the prices they are asking I see no problem with putting the 150 in the owner maintenance category and flying it that way...

You were originally trying to save money. With this scenario you are throwing it away. You will have the expenses of importing it, registering it, and then you devalue it by changing it to owner maintenance. Once you are satisfied you have put enough fuel through it building hours, good luck trying to sell it to recoup any of your money. It would basically be a parts plane. If I were looking for a 150 in Canada (that's the only place you can sell it once its owner maintained) the last thing I would consider is a 150 that's been changed to owner maintained who's owner flew the piss out of it as cheaply as possible building time when I could get a certified one for under 20k.

[Grantmac]

I'm with Kilo-Kilo,

If you are going to go the 150/2 route then get a NICE one in country. Get a pre-buy/annual from a good shop.
Fly the CRAP out of it for 10 months and sell it, I mean 5hrs/week minimum.

-Grant

[dave_091]

I'm with Kilo-Kilo,

If you are going to go the 150/2 route then get a NICE one in country. Get a pre-buy/annual from a good shop.
Fly the CRAP out of it for 10 months and sell it, I mean 5hrs/week minimum.

-Grant

Seems like a great idea.
How hard is it really to import a aircraft from the states though? If all maintenance is accounted for, all logs, all mods have STC's to back them up and all AD's are complied with and no damage history... how hard can it be?

[Colonel Sanders]

How hard is it really to import a aircraft from the states though?

Heh heh heh ... if you buy an undamaged airplane with no mods and complete
logs since new, it's not too hard. Best of British Luck finding one of those.

But if it's got murky damage repairs, missing logbooks, and 337's with no STC's,
well, it's time to bend over and grab your ankles.

TC and the FAA have very different ideas of what airworthy means.

[Kilo-Kilo]

The Colonel just gave you the eleven herbs and spices of buying a bird cooked in the states. No paper = no-paper airplane.

[dave_091]

How hard is it really to import a aircraft from the states though?

Heh heh heh ... if you buy an undamaged airplane with no mods and complete
logs since new, it's not too hard. Best of British Luck finding one of those.

But if it's got murky damage repairs, missing logbooks, and 337's with no STC's,
well, it's time to bend over and grab your ankles.

TC and the FAA have very different ideas of what airworthy means.

I laughed pretty hard reading this, thanks.

[AirFrame]

The Grummans would be great little airplanes too. Kind of a slower, non-aerobatic RV. But at least you get to slide the canopy back while taxiing, and if I recall clearly you get to fly with a stick, too, as god intended.

If you're serious about homebuilts, consider something uncommon like a Thorp T-18 (or the S-18 variant), Mustang I or II, or one of the basic VFR RV's (although you'd be into $40K for an RV). I've seen Thorps for $20K on Barnstormers in the last year. The Flybaby is a great little airplane, but you'd have a hard time finding one now that you could be really confident in the condition of... Most have spent time outdoors, so unless you know a really good wood expert you'd be well advised to strip and re-cover it after buying it in most cases.

You don't say where you're located, but if you can get to one of the larger US fly-ins there's a better than average chance that you'll be able to find something for sale on the ramp. Arlington, WA is July 12-15, Oshkosh, WI is at the end of the month.

Aircraft prices are stupid right now. A friend of my father is now down to $45K asking price on a full-IFR, 180HP, fixed pitch, Cessna Cardinal. There are only 3 or 4 in Canada, apparently. Can't imagine why nobody would buy it.

[Beefitarian]

I went and looked to make sure. Those grummans I linked are both yoke style control columns. Serious bargains compared to 5 years ago though.

We're still in denial but it's a recession. Way less people can afford to buy a plane so down go the prices. Unfourtunately I've just got enough Pesos to rent once every couple of months but.. I'm happy to be flying that often again instead of every 6 years like I did.

If I get a high enough paying gig or some big score of loot though.. I'll probably buy some poor airplane that can sit by my Harley and suffer internal engine corrosion while I pound these keys and make people cringe on the intermanet.

[Taiser]

You won't save any money by building...trust me I know! You can get a cheap 150 and put it in the "owner maintenance" category and save a fortune...BUT if you love building and maintaining your own aircraft, building is the way to go.

You can build a BULA (basic UL) but are restricted on where you can go, no passengers and you have to wear a helmet. Advantage is no inspections during the build, put it together, get the paperwork and you're off. I was going to go this way but flying alone can suck (unless using it as a trainer). A Hummelbird can be built to this standard, or a Murphy Renegade, to give you ideas of the sizes, they are nice.

Get a AULA and you can build it yourself, has to be built to the manufacturer specs, no alterations. Can carry a passenger, no helmets needed. You can do all the maintenance yourself though. Most new "Sport Pilots" are into these.

Homebuilt or amateur built. This is the way to go. My current project. Can be built to pretty much any spec, needs 2 inspections (pre-cover and final) and use pretty much any engine except a rocket engine!

My build is a Zenith CH750 in the "amateur" category. Went this way because it has the most benefits, at least for me. Can carry passengers, can do all the maint. yourself, can be modified. I'm putting in a glass panel and amphibs on mine with a O-235 engine. About 75% done with 80% to go!! I highly encourage anyone who wants to have an aircraft, and has the means, too build one. I've been having a blast!

Here's a shot...it's a bit further along now, sitting on all three wheels. I should be installing the engine this week...

[Beefitarian]

Nice work Taiser.

[lownslow]

Back to the original topic, IF this Fly Baby really is for sale cheap, IF it has been inspected and is in good shape (bring someone who knows wood and someone who knows engines to inspect it and of course find out its history), IF you're willing to hangar it and treat it right, and most importantly IF the prospect of flying around in a Fly Baby excites you then it just might be a good plane to get.

Personally, I would have flown the wings off a Fly Baby if I had one a few years ago to build time on. They look like a lot of fun and I imagine as long as you respect its limits and yours owning on would be unforgettable. I really wish I could give you a pirep on how they handle but the one time I had a chance to fly one I found I was just too tall to get in. I think anyone under 6'4" should be fine though.

LnS.

P.S. Apply the above to ANY airplane.

[Beefitarian]

Are you sure it was a fly baby Low? The one I saw had no roof. A giraffe should be able to sit in it.