W0XOF wrote:Doc, you were close on the mandatory calls. CAR's provides that. You, being a pilot should know what they are. I'm not going to post them. You missed an inbound call, transiting calls and all the outbound calls.
You are correct. I only gave "inbound" for landing mandatory calls. It's not the mandatory calls that are the problem here, It's the frequency, length and repetition of calls blocking the airways and leaving no air time for actual conflicts to be sorted out. It's really the simple fact that I don't believe it's a safe situation, and I'm not new here.
I'm not blaming FSS. I'm blaming the system. It's not like pilot are not capable of non-stop pontification. They can go on and on as well. But flying into Red Lake scare the crap out of me. It shouldn't. This IS an accident that just hasn't happened yet.
Roger runway 08, active runways 08 and 26.
Your traffic is a king air 200, inbound from YQK, arguing about too much chatter on frequency,
a king air 100, outbound to YPM, not envying FSS's job,
a tanker foreseeing disaster,
a CRJ making a reasonable suggestion,
an FSS arguing about the legal requirements,
a floatplane offering a low-blow (although well deserved) at perimeter,
a Buffalo reliving ancient history,
an unknown type suggesting pre-emptively reporting all known traffic,
a Twotter relating to a similar situation on the other side of the world,
etc.... and a midair as I was trying to pass you all the traffic!
I hope none of the FSS operators take this thread the wrong way. It's the system that's broken not them. What they do is incredible really. How they keep a mental picture of the traffic situation from hundreds of miles away has always astonished me. I'm not sure but it seems that they are doing so at multiple airports at the same time. Probably due to cut backs, budget issues, and staffing issues. How they remain so calm when dealing with the passive-agressive and incompentant pilots that they communicate with daily is beyond me. You guys and ladies deserve recognition for doing a great job with the rules and procedures you've been given. The MF system could be better, but it could be much much worse if it wasn't for you.
AOW wrote:Roger runway 08, active runways 08 and 26.
Your traffic is a king air 200, inbound from YQK, arguing about too much chatter on frequency,
a king air 100, outbound to YPM, not envying FSS's job,
a tanker foreseeing disaster,
a CRJ making a reasonable suggestion,
an FSS arguing about the legal requirements,
a floatplane offering a low-blow (although well deserved) at perimeter,
a Buffalo reliving ancient history,
an unknown type suggesting pre-emptively reporting all known traffic,
a Twotter relating to a similar situation on the other side of the world,
etc.... and a midair as I was trying to pass you all the traffic!
The Bee's are hilarious, I've watched it 50 times and am still laughing, in addtion to the head on the one that lands short is also funny...Best video reply on AvCanada ever!
AOW wrote:a floatplane offering a low-blow (although well deserved) at perimeter,
I must ask what is your problem with Perimeter? Yes I fly for them, though I rarely go into NWO when I do go to ZSJ, ZPD or other such places I hear Wasaya "taxing deer for sandy" that's it... No runways no altitudes nothing. As I said in the past year I have been to Sandy maybe 5 times, I am not too familiar with the area all I know is I pass over deer lake enroute to sandy lake from Winnipeg and I have to check my charts each time to see where these places are. I tried to get a hold of this Wasaya plane and they never got back to me until they said "Wasaya clearing Deer for sandy" and I had to ask (using her correct) indent several times on 126.7 until she got back to us. Turns out our ETA was exactly the same. Now in the 5 times I have been to ZSJ I had one other similar but not as bad call with a Caravan. Saying you're 10 south for sandy in 5 does not give me an idea which runway you are going into or anything.
So I get back to Perimeter, what do we do wrong that we could improve on? We have to make a 126.7 call entering controlled airspace (descending through FL180 or 12,500 depending on where you are) if it's quiet you won't here from me again until I am entering on 6.7. If it's busy Ill make another call 5 mins prior to starting an approach.
Not everyone at PAG deserves the reputation that they have, but there is some reason for it. I admit some of the calls you hear in NWO are pretty minimal, but that being said, if you happen to be inbound to one of these spots, most guys will reply with all the detail you need if you just ask. A lot of the time, there's no other traffic for 100 miles, so they get away with essentially a taxi call.
Key words to remove from Perimeter pilot's 126.7 calls:
-an IFR metro... you're comming out of the flight levels; you're flying a PAG metro; we know you're IFR!
-traffic 250 North of YWG... way too ambiguous, and meaningless if you don't actually have YWG as a waypoint!
-"any conflicting traffic please advise PAG 1234 on 126.7 and 122.2"... If I am (possibly) in conflict with you, I will contact you whether you ask me to or not. I also only have two radios, so you must be calling on one of them. I can make a pretty good guess which one it was most of the time, and if I can't get you on that one, I will try the other....
-I'm sure somebody can chime in with more.
I know that most of your guys are decent, but you are easy targets. My comment was meant to be tongue-in-cheek more than actually offensive. (as was the rest of my post).
AOW wrote:Not everyone at PAG deserves the reputation that they have, but there is some reason for it. I admit some of the calls you hear in NWO are pretty minimal, but that being said, if you happen to be inbound to one of these spots, most guys will reply with all the detail you need if you just ask. A lot of the time, there's no other traffic for 100 miles, so they get away with essentially a taxi call.
Key words to remove from Perimeter pilot's 126.7 calls:
-an IFR metro... you're comming out of the flight levels; you're flying a PAG metro; we know you're IFR!
-traffic 250 North of YWG... way too ambiguous, and meaningless if you don't actually have YWG as a waypoint!
-"any conflicting traffic please advise PAG 1234 on 126.7 and 122.2"... If I am (possibly) in conflict with you, I will contact you whether you ask me to or not. I also only have two radios, so you must be calling on one of them. I can make a pretty good guess which one it was most of the time, and if I can't get you on that one, I will try the other....
-I'm sure somebody can chime in with more.
I know that most of your guys are decent, but you are easy targets. My comment was meant to be tongue-in-cheek more than actually offensive. (as was the rest of my post).
That is fair, I hear it a bit so I was more curious. I have not heard someone say 250 north of YWG in a little while, that is pretty useless I agree, most GPSs have a nearest apt function, very useful .
Is not the purpose of a traffic advisory to get the attention of anyone occupying airspace close to you -- do a long winded advisory and I'll almost guarantee that you will need to repeat it again if someone answers your call - simple straight forward and work out the details once someone calls u back -- less and less over flight traffic on 126.7 with more ATC coverage and data links but still if you are a high flyer long winded advisories do cut into maybe more critical conversations -- KISS is where it's at --
...for the benefit of the inexperienced private guys and the "weekend warriors"...CFS / RED LAKE/ COMM RCO and MF shows 'Kenora rdo' as the "call sign" (pB806) ...when calling in to YRL do you use "Kenora Radio" or "Red Lake Radio" ?
DanWEC wrote:The guys I flew with on the bay used, and told me to use, "Red Lake Radio".
The "correct" terminology would be "Kenora radio at Red Lake", however I think "Red Lake Radio" would indeed be better (although, as it stands today, incorrect) as it immediately implies you are indeed talking to RED LAKE area traffic.
I use "XXX (kenora in this case) radio through XXX (red lake)"
AOW, I totally agree with you, I hate that any conflicting traffic, please advise. Stupidest call ever.
Of course you are going to advise if you are conflicting, and if you don't advise, you either didn't hear it, or being a jackass!
I think the saying if you are IFR or VFR is a throw back from talking to Radio's. I know Timmins Radio asks often if you do not state if you are IFR or VFR.
And please, think about what you are going to say before you say it, instead of making it up as you go along! I hate hearing ummm errrr or the mic clicking off and then back on again while you decide what runway you are going into or out of.
Gorgons wrote:The Bee's are hilarious, I've watched it 50 times and am still laughing, in addtion to the head on the one that lands short is also funny...Best video reply on AvCanada ever!
Agreed! The bee that came up short must have experienced a "subtle veering cross wind" that I've been reading about so much lately...
.
