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IFR Clearance in VMC

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CellPh2

Post subject: IFR Clearance in VMC

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:08 pm

Rank 1

Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:09 am
Posts: 28

Two airports, both class E airspace, one with FSS on site (AAS) and the other....no special services offered by FSS.

It says in the AIM, that if I want to depart IFR, with VFR restrictions, I have to request it, conditions permit, outside class A, but inside controlled airspace. I would guess if there was AAS offered, I would request it with them.

But if there was no way to get this request through to ATC....could you not just depart VFR (if it was perfect VMC) and pick up your clearance in the air? Would there be any repercussions in departing without first asking for this VFR restriction?

Controllers...if you were expecting an aircraft off an airport, inside controlled airspace...and he called you up after departure....but on course, in VMC...would this be a problem?

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AOW

Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance in VMC

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:24 pm

Rank 4

Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 10:23 pm
Posts: 267

I have done it numerous times, it is perfectly legal; be prepared, however, to not receive a clearance... possibly (although unlikely) ever. Just be aware that you may have to continue under VFR for a fair distance before you can get a clearance.

The simpler method is to just get your clearance over the phone, especially if the Wx is marginal.

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Ruddervator

Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance in VMC

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:46 pm

Rank 0

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:31 am
Posts: 8

I fly IFR training flights out of a small uncontrolled airport with no IFR approaches. Usually I make a call on my cell from the cockpit prior to start, but since it takes my students 10-15 minutes to do their run up, I find that the controllers typically won't give me a clearance. Should I be calling on the phone while holding short, and dealing with cockpit noise? Or continue to depart VFR and get the clearance in the air?

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lostaviator

Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance in VMC

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:25 pm

Rank 2

Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:42 pm
Posts: 61

I disagree.

7.9 IFR Departures from Uncontrolled Airports

Where a pilot-in-command intends to take off from an uncontrolled aerodrome, the pilot shall:

obtain an ATC clearance if in controlled airspace;
report their departure procedure and intentions on the appropriate frequency before moving on to the runway or before aligning the aircraft on the take off path; and
ascertain by radio on the appropriate frequency and by visual observation that no other aircraft or vehicle is likely to come into conflict with the aircraft during takeoff.

The pilot-in-command shall maintain a listening watch:

during takeoff from an uncontrolled aerodrome; and
after takeoff from an uncontrolled aerodrome for which a MF has been designated, until the aircraft is beyond the distance or above the altitude associated with that frequency.

As soon as possible after reaching the distance or altitude associated with the MF, the pilot-in-command shall communicate with the appropriate ATC unit or a ground station on the appropriate en-route frequency.

Where IFR departures are required to contact an IFR control unit or ground station after takeoff, it is recommended that, if the aircraft is equipped with two radios, the pilot should also monitor the MF during the departure.

If the aerodrome is located in uncontrolled airspace, these procedures shall be followed except that an ATC clearance is not required. In addition to maintaining a listening watch, it is recommended that the pilot-in-command communicate with the appropriate ATC unit, FIC, or other ground station on the appropriate en-route frequency.

6.2 IFR Flights in VMC

A pilot may elect to conduct a flight in accordance with IFR in VMC. Flights operating in accordance with IFR shall continue in accordance with IFR, regardless of weather conditions.

This came up a few years ago as well. Link to post is here. viewtopic.php?f=54&t=7197

If you have filed IFR, you are IFR. Regardless of weather. IFR is not IMC. They are different.

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kevenv

Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance in VMC

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:45 pm

Rank 6

Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:19 pm
Posts: 425

Pilots do both in QM FIR. Sometimes they will depart VFR off of say FH4, other times they call on the phone for a clx. If you depart VFR and we are busy, as mentioned above, there could be a delay in you getting your clx.

@ Ruddervator- When a pilot calls on the phone for a clx, or on the frequency if one is on the ground (YCL, YCH), I will give a 15 minute window for them to depart. I think most of my coworkers do the same. Once you have a clx the airport is, generally speaking, shut down. Plus if you are going enroute I am protecting your flight path at whatever altitude I have assigned. I certainly don't mind when people depart VFR and ask for a clx airborne. Another option would be get your clx on the phone, and when the Clx Cancelled time is approaching, call on the phone and ask for an extension. That way you don't have to get the whole clx when it's noisy. We see this sort of thing all the time as well.

Last edited by kevenv on Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kevenv

Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance in VMC

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:48 pm

Rank 6

Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:19 pm
Posts: 425

lostaviator wrote:

All of the airports in our FIR that we encounter this sort of thing at underlie controlled airspace.

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ahramin

Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance in VMC

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:24 am

Rank Moderator

Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:21 am
Posts: 3440
Location: Vancouver

lostaviator,

7.9 applies to IFR departures. The question is about VFR departures. 7.9 does not apply. As stated previously it is perfectly legal to depart VFR and request an IFR clearance in the air, and as stated previously you may or may not get the clearance.

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lostaviator

Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance in VMC

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:44 pm

Rank 2

Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:42 pm
Posts: 61

If I have filed an IFR flight plan, I am IFR.

It would appear from the previous topic, this is a 50/50 battle. Ill air on the side of caution until such time it is address otherwise in the CARS or AIM. Besides which, most airports that are class E control zones, have FSS ARR/DEP frequencies, etc.

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AOW

Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance in VMC

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:48 pm

Rank 4

Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 10:23 pm
Posts: 267

lostaviator wrote:

If I have filed an IFR flight plan, I am IFR.

Respectfully, if you have filed an IFR flight plan, you intend to do an IFR flight. You are not IFR until you receive a clearance. You could, in fact, file a VFR/IFR composite flight plan, in which case you intend to be VFR initially, and will become IFR at a later time/place. In order to speed up the process, departing VFR with the intention of picking up the IFR clearance airborne, you are VFR. The same applies to an airport with an opperating FSS AAS or RAAS. You can request a VFR departure, especially when there is going to be a big delay due to other IFR traffic. In this case, if the VFR departure is approved, you are VFR and must maintain VFR until you do receive a clearance. My advice to anyone is to not request/accept a VFR departure, unless you are willing to remain VFR for the entire portion of the flight within controlled airspace. In other words, you may be legal to depart VFR with 500' OVC and 3sm vis, but do you really want to fly for 200 miles in that?

lostaviator wrote:

Ill air on the side of caution until such time it is address otherwise in the CARS or AIM. Besides which, most airports that are class E control zones, have FSS ARR/DEP frequencies, etc.

Ok, I won't even touch on the atrocious English...
There are plenty of airports that are not class E control zones, yet are within (or closely underlying) class E airspace. Heck, if I take off from my neighbour's farm, I will be in class E at 700' AGL -- no FSS available there, though.

Feel free to err on the side of caution; it's a safer way to ensure that you do get a clearance...

As for the OP: if your student takes 15 minutes after engine start to prepare for departure (especially if it isn't the first flight of the day), there is another problem to deal with....

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lostaviator

Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance in VMC

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:37 pm

Rank 2

Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:42 pm
Posts: 61

I didn't know this forum was used to debate English. I'll watch my fat fingers on my iPhone next time.

Back to the other topic.

Here is what I was told once upon a time, and have always gone with it. I will give you scenarios.

a) Taking off from a uncontrolled airport in glass G airspace that underlays an airway that starts at 2,200 agl. Can you depart VFR and climb visual until you can reach ATC, yes because you are not in a control zone
b) You are sitting on the ground at a class E airport which is a control zone and the FSS frequency is NOTAM'd as US due to a power outage (or whatever you want), can you depart and get your IFR clearance in the air? No. Because you are departing from a "control zone" having filed an IFR flight plan.

I say again - this is just what I was told by someone who has a few more hours than myself and I have chosen to adopt that as my policy.

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AOW

Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance in VMC

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:39 pm

Rank 4

Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 10:23 pm
Posts: 267

I suppose in your example b) you could call and cancel your IFR flight plan, depart VFR, and refile in the air.... that makes much more sense...

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lostaviator

Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance in VMC

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:55 pm

Rank 2

Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:42 pm
Posts: 61

So, what is the purpose of a VFR departure? Obviously, ATC wants to know about an aircraft departing that is going to be looking for IFR if they put enough thought into creating it.

If I can fire up, and take off VFR because some other IFR aircraft is in the airspace, why is it necessary for FSS to call centre and ask for VFR departure?

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lostaviator

Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance in VMC

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:11 pm

Rank 2

Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:42 pm
Posts: 61

See: http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/c ... 0CLEARANCE

And:
METAR/SPECI from CYYQ, Churchill, Man. (Canada). SA 20/04/2011 16:00->

METAR CYYQ 201600Z 24013KT 15SM SKC M01/M13 A2985 RMK SLP111=

SA 20/04/2011 15:00->

METAR CYYQ 201500Z 24008KT 15SM SKC M04/M12 A2987 RMK SLP119=

SA 20/04/2011 14:00->

METAR CYYQ 201400Z 25007KT 15SM SKC M08/M14 A2989 RMK SLP126=

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ahramin

Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance in VMC

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:43 am

Rank Moderator

Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:21 am
Posts: 3440
Location: Vancouver

Lostaviator, if you haven't filed a flight plan are you IFR or VFR?

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lostaviator

Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance in VMC

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:20 am

Rank 2

Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:42 pm
Posts: 61

Depends on a number of factors. Weather, where I am.

Another person who took off from a control zone without clearance, Cadors Number: 2007C1360

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parrot_head

Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance in VMC

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:05 pm

Rank 2

Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:24 am
Posts: 71

lostaviator wrote:

The big difference is whether or not you have received an IFR clearance yet. If you have filed an IFR flight plan, but have not received an IFR clearance, you have no obligation to adhere to any IFR flight rules, regardless of airspace. So, in this case, if you want to depart VFR and request an IFR clearance later you don't need any special permission from ATC. I see this all the time.

However, if you have filed an IFR flight plan and then receive an IFR clearance, then you are required to get approval for any portion of that clearance that you want to carry out in accordance with VFR. Why? Separation. Aircraft with IFR clearances are entitled to IFR separation with other IFR aircraft. ATC approval is needed before you can carry out a portion of your IFR clearance using VFR. It's usually not an issue, however the controller needs to know the segments of your flight that VFR separation standards can be applied with any other IFR aircraft in the area and whether or not you can maintain VFR long enough to ensure IFR separation with the other aircraft if needed.

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lostaviator

Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance in VMC

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:00 pm

Rank 2

Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:42 pm
Posts: 61

parrot_head wrote:

if you have filed an IFR flight plan and then receive an IFR clearance, then you are required to get approval for any portion of that clearance that you want to carry out in accordance with VFR. .

VFR Release of an IFR Aircraft - When a delay is experienced in receiving an IFR departure clearance, a pilot may request approval to depart and maintain VFR until an IFR clearance can be received.

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osprey

Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance in VMC

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:49 pm

Rank 1

Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:10 am
Posts: 20

Lost

You are getting clearances and flight plans mixed together.

If on an IFR flight plan that is activated you must get either a clearance or a VFR departure. If you do not activate that flight plan you can take off VFR without getting either.

We require to always be on an IFR flight plan which is activated, so we always need a VFR release or a clearance.

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parrot_head

Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance in VMC

Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:42 am

Rank 2

Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:24 am
Posts: 71

lostaviator wrote:

VFR Release of an IFR Aircraft - When a delay is experienced in receiving an IFR departure clearance, a pilot may request approval to depart and maintain VFR until an IFR clearance can be received.

As the title states, this applies to the VFR release for an "IFR aircraft". An IFR aircraft is an aircraft that is in receipt of an IFR clearance, not an aircraft that has filed an IFR flight plan and has not received a clearance.

This situation applies where you receive an IFR clearance on the ground, and are delayed in receiving either a take-off clearance from the tower due to the tower not receiving validation for the departure (for each IFR departure, the tower controller must receive an IFR clearance validation from the applicable IFR control unit prior to issuing a take-off clearance), or, if there is no tower, you receive specific departure instructions (do not depart until....clearance not valid until.....). In these cases, you can request a VFR departure to hopefully expedite your take-off. The IFR unit must approve this as it is an amendment to your IFR clearance.

So to answer the original question,

CellPh2 wrote:

It says in the AIM, that if I want to depart IFR, with VFR restrictions, I have to request it, conditions permit, outside class A, but inside controlled airspace. I would guess if there was AAS offered, I would request it with them.

If you have already received an IFR clearance, yes. You're departing in accordance with an IFR clearance, with VFR restrictions and the IFR controller needs to approve this.

CellPh2 wrote:

But if there was no way to get this request through to ATC....could you not just depart VFR (if it was perfect VMC) and pick up your clearance in the air? Would there be any repercussions in departing without first asking for this VFR restriction?

You've mentioned that, in this case, you have not yet received you IFR clearance, so yes you can depart VFR and try and get a hold of ATC in the air for your IFR clearance.

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W0XOF

Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance in VMC

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:19 pm

Rank 4

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:30 am
Posts: 221

lostaviator wrote:

Being specific to an FSS without pre taxi clearance. If you do depart VFR without VFR departure authorisation, there are no guarantees you will receive your clearance in the air. This could be due to multiple IFR inbounds that you are unaware of, MEDEVAC priority etc. By getting the VFR departure authorisation, you will be given an expect clearance time (departure +5 mins, 10 NM E etc.).

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lilfssister

Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance in VMC

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:11 pm

Rank Moderator

Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:51 pm
Posts: 2746
Location: Mysteryville Castle

I think the high points are:

1. Sure you can depart from an MF airport without the VFR departure
2. If you elect to do so you MAY be unable to obtain an IFR clearance in the air and need to continue to destination VFR
3. You are on neither an IFR nor VFR flight plan, so no alerting service until and if you get IFR clearance and your IFR flight plan is activated, or if unable to obtain clearance you refile a VFR flight plan
4. As pointed out above when you get approval to depart VFR you will normally be given an expect clearance time or place. An ACC controller can clarify, but I would expect that the same rules apply to the EFC time/place as if you got one when already on an IFR clearance.

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Duncan Idaho

Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance in VMC

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:41 am

Rank 3

Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:11 pm
Posts: 105

I agree with lilf and ahramin and parrot. But what the heck is that CADOR? Did an FSS staffer AND cador reporter both get mixed up on the legality of it? I can't believe a person would get CADORed for that. Can someone explain why?

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lostaviator

Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance in VMC

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:30 am

Rank 2

Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:42 pm
Posts: 61

Duncan Idaho wrote:

Yes! That is why I have taken the position I have. People do get CADORed for this for some reason so I stopped the practice. I am usually early anyway, so whats the harm in waiting 15 seconds for a clearance.

I was going to e-mail a Transport Inspector but once again, I got lost on the TC website. What a load of crap that site is.

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ahramin

Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance in VMC

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:18 am

Rank Moderator

Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:21 am
Posts: 3440
Location: Vancouver

lostaviator, if you do a go-around, you will get a CADOR filed for that as well. Are you going to stop doing go-arounds now?

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lostaviator

Post subject: Re: IFR Clearance in VMC

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:14 pm

Rank 2

Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:42 pm
Posts: 61

It isn't what the CADOR is about, it is how they tag/categorize it. If I go around, it would be marked under operational impact or something like that. When these aircraft are being put in the category of "CAR's Infraction" that is when you have to ask, why?

Quote:

UPDATE The company reported that there was a misunderstanding by the crew concerning VFR departures and picking up an IFR clearance after takeoff. This airport is in controlled airspace and pilots have been briefed on the requirements about obtaining clearance before takeoff.

And in this one, http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/c ... pe=0&narr=

It was tagged as a "Alleged Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs) infraction"

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