AME shortage?

[acidgambit]

Hey Sled. Good for ya for getting on with Canadian North. I was wondering what happened to the Aveos guys at YEG.

About the industry standard pay. As far as i know on the M2 side...it's 25 bucks to start. And that's with just an AME M2 and no ACA. At least that's what i have been offered by several companies. Some were 25 and some were 26 or 27. Around there. For apprentices i have no idea. But after asking around for a bit....i believe apprentices are around the 16 to 19 dollar mark.

[jetsetfly]

And Emirates is in Vancouver,Toronto and Montreal doing info sessions hiring Experienced Engineers and shipping them to Dubai looks like alot aveos layoffs with experience on emirates fleet will be applying and probably get hired so there goes more experienced engineers to Dubai....

[jeffrey.cyr]

And now we add Jazz to this list. I think I'm out of the biz for now.

[The Weasel]

Back to the subject of this thread,
The shortage of AME's is the fault of the industry itself as there is no industry standard for pay, (employers just post an amount), and companies like AC feel it is more cost effective to fly to China for work. But that being said there is always someone out there that will rush out to work for $20 an hour to please their employer.

I think there's a few more factors involved here.

The aircraft being built nowadays are less maintenance intensive, require less day-to-day work, more reliable, etc. This makes it easier to ship maintenance work overseas, or at least reduce maintenance infastructure.

Regarding pay, there's enough AMEs out there that don't stand up for themselves when it comes to pay, conditions, benifits, etc. If there's another guy waiting to take a job for less pay, then that's a supply and demand issue.

The travelling public demands low airfares, so airlines look for ways to cut costs. Until the public demands better quality and safer air travel and is willing to pay for it, maintenance standards/conditions/pay will not likely increase.

Is there really a shortage of AMEs? Sure, there's a shortage of good AMEs. There always has been and always will be. But the work is still (more or less) getting done and I don't see accident rates skyrocketing upwards.

What's the solution to any of the above (or other) issues? I think short of dictatorial government intervention, there isn't too much that can be done. If accident rates don't increase or the public isn't willing to pay more for air travel, why would anything change? Ultimately the travelling public pays our wages, so they will determine what course the industry takes.

[The Weasel]

Doubt I'd leave my cushy government job for less.

Nice. If only we could ALL have cushy government jobs where we do less work for more pay with unsustainable pensions and benifits (I make the assumption that this is the definition of 'cushy'), then we could gloriously go the same way as Greece...

[conehead]

We need something like this;

http://www.collegeoftrades.ca/

[acidgambit]

The Weasel.

You make a good point. I went back to the trade school i graduated from to talk to some instructors and had the opportunity to talk to some of the students there. Two i talked to...they basically said that they're willing to volunteer to work for free until they can get full time employment with X company. I laughed and shook my head. I basically told them ...."You are one of the reasons why AMEs are getting paid crappy wages."

And about the out sourcing issue. I have always told my Aveos/AC friends that.....we can complain all we want, but if the public isn't aware of the safety issue, airlines will always find a way to outsource the maintenance and the government won't do anything about it. It is not my wish for this to happen....but it is going to take a couple of airplanes that were maintained by foreign MROs to fall out of the sky for the public to start paying attention to the safety issue. Until then...don't expect big airlines to bring the jobs back to Canada. Right now it is all about the money. Good quality higher cost compare to low quality cheap labour.....the latter wins.

[Schimunga]

acidgambit--having a couple of airplanes maintained by foreign MRO's fall out of the sky probably won't do much to make the public pay attention to safety. The general public doesn't have a good memory when it comes to things like that. Why I say that is because unless it is obvious why the plane crashed it takes years to find out the cause. By then people have moved on to other more pressing issues. Then when it is found out why the plane crashed it is usually an article buried in the corner of page 6 of the paper. Since airliners aren't crashing on a weekly basis the general public has accepted the associated risk that comes with flying.

Being on the rotary side of maintenance I am not sure how the relationship between pilots and engineers are on the fixed wing side of things but maybe we should try to get the pilots on board with the idea of keeping the heavy maintenance at home. If it is brought to their attention that these machines are coming back from some outfit in a 3rd world country in poor condition and there are legitimate concerns with its airworthiness they might think twice before strapping their butt in it. With the combined effort of both the AME's and pilots bringing the issue of safety to the public then maybe the major airlines will think twice about sending work overseas. How fast do you think Harper would legislate back to work for pilots and AME's when they are striking due to unsafe practises by Air Canada? Do you think the public will fly in a plane if the pilot doesn't want to fly it? I think to stop shipping work overseas we need the pilots to help out. Just an idea.

[kilpicki]

Everyone on here complaining belongs to their regional AME association, right? And attend the meetings to bring your views forward, and attend the annual forum to hear the latest news.
Maybe the idea brought up at the last forum of a paid national rep to go to Ottawa to lobby for the regional groups has some merrit. Whinning here on this forum won't get you diddly

[seamus]

It seems to me that no matter what, sooner or later, almost all subjects on this forum revert back to the never-ending discussion about the plight of the Canadian AME. Mostly it's always the same story, it's always someone else's fault things are the way they are. Someone else is always to blame; lousy bosses, general public, Transport Canada, 9/11, foreign MROs, lazy co-workers, pilots, corporate agenda, Easter Bunny and so on....

What did ever happen to taking responsibility for your own actions and being in charge of your own life ?? I've worked at few different hangars in my life but never once did I see an AME chained to a work stand or a shackle bolted to a floor. If some of these operations out there are as bad as everyone says they are why do people continue to work for them? Or for that matter, if this industry in general is so bad why continue to stay in it ? My guess is that it is often far easier to bitch and complain about it then to get off your ass and improve things starting with one's own life. Complaining is a lot like masturbation - it's not a real solution.

As for the shortage of AMEs, the good ones are definitely getting harder to find. Good news is that employers will still pay top dollar for the services of an AME but like everyone else they too want value for their money. There's plenty of respect and money to be had in this business but its hard to get any of it when you think that the whole world owes you just because you have an AME licence.

Cheers

[torquey401]

Interesting discussion. One question that pops to mind: What makes a "good AME" good?

[The Weasel]

Seamus,

Good points. I think that an individual's attitude and outlook has a great deal of influence as to what one gets out of life, but there are other factors involved that have been mentioned. Sometimes we simply can't control everything that the world throws at us. Aircraft that are less maintenance intensive is a good example. What are we going to do, call up Airbus and ask them to design planes that require more work?

But ultimately you're right, if one thinks their employer or work situation is bad, complaining really accomplishes nothing. You can either accept it, or do something about it (fix it or leave). I've done all of those: sometimes I just went with it, othertimes I've fought and won against an employer (we do have labour laws in this country), and in other cases it's best to cut your loses and simply move on for peace of mind. In all cases though, I made the decision, accepted my decision, and was happy that I had done something. Anytime I felt like I wasn't in control at a company was usually the first sign that I should probably be looking elsewhere.

[The Weasel]

Interesting discussion. One question that pops to mind: What makes a "good AME" good?

Good question. I've heard some people talk about the difference between an "Engineer" and a "Licence". Having an AME Licence just means that you can get through school, survive an apprenticeship somewhat unscathed, and pass a few Transport exams. The REAL test comes after. Usually the difference relates to intelligence. Some people have a better engineering mindset, can troubleshoot rather than simply change parts (a 'Change-ineer'), think independently or outside the box when needed, etc. It's all about problem solving and being able to think on the fly.

Attitude and work ethic play into it also (get it done, don't complain, but be fair and say "no" when needed), getting it done right the first time, getting it done in a timely manner, knowing and understanding the regs and manuals, standing up for themselves and putting their foot down when others have crossed the line, etc. A good sense of humour definitely helps. Basically (like a lot of things in life) 80% of it is attitude and mindset.

I've had the good fortune of working with some great AMEs and seen what it takes to be one.

[Taiser]

Doubt I'd leave my cushy government job for less.

Nice. If only we could ALL have cushy government jobs where we do less work for more pay with unsustainable pensions and benifits (I make the assumption that this is the definition of 'cushy'), then we could gloriously go the same way as Greece...

Take a chance, quit your job, go back to school for 4 years, apply for a government job over the next 3 years after that, go through a few panel interviews and sell yourself and MAYBE you can have a "cushy" job too!

Not my problem you don't have one, go try and get one! Stop whining or crying about Greece. All government jobs aren't gravy you know...I actually work hard at mine, only the pay and benefits are "cushy"!

If everyone did what I did then maybe the AME trade would start paying better since finding an AME would be a lot harder. Only reason the pay sucks is an over saturation of employees at the moment.

[FrozenWrench]

I have to say i agree with this topic, the shortage might not have happened fully yet but it is starting. Now i will honestly say i have not been actively working in the industry for very long (only 4 years total) but i grew up in the industry (the old man has been an AME for 30+ years) and i have seen the decline that is happening. When i first started out of school there was 14 other apprentices hired by the company, after 6 months there was 5 apprentices left and by the end of my apprenticeship there was 3 of us. The rest could not handle the BS or the HRS so they gave up. The maintenance in that company was great and minimal overtime because there was 2 planes per AME plus apprentices. When i left there they had 7 planes per AME and with very few apprentices.

Id say its a shortage on all sides. We have an AME shortage, and an Apprentice shortage.

[ryolanovitch]

There seems to be a demand for licensed M1 and M2 AME's all right..

Where are all the younger AME's? and apprentices?

Its hard to watch at some places, the wisdome is retiring and the next generation seems a little vacant, where are all the young peolpe to be handed the knowledge?

I ask myself the questions.... Are there work co-op's each year for a student? What larger companeys support apprentices tuitions ect? Is AME a red seal trade?....nope! is there support from the government like red seal trades?
How many large companies hire apprentices? Will a nissan, honda ,or GM dealer help go to school? What about becoming a welder? or millright, boilermaker....Whats the starting wage as an apprentice again? hmmmmm and when I finally become ACA and have all that responablity whats the wage again?? hmmmmm Grave yard shift you say??

The fact is if your looking at going to school, AME may not look the most attractive in comparison...
Its a hard ticket to get, and alot of responsabilty..There is also a demand for other trades that are less responabilty, easier to obtain, and more lucrative...and just as enjoyable!!!

The industry and government will simply have to support young people in the industry as they do other trades!

[frosti]

Where are all the younger AME's? and apprentices?

Working on the oil patch. Who is dumb enough to start a AME program right now when you can make big $$$ working in Alberta.

[Schultzie]

There seems to be a demand for licensed M1 and M2 AME's all right..

Where are all the younger AME's? and apprentices?

Most of the people I went to school with got out looong ago. Mostly due to less then ideal shift work, for less then ideal compensation for more then a reasonable responsibility. Where i live it is really easy to get an oil field job, go work up north 2 in 2 out and make a tonne of money, go buy that expensive truck, buy a house etc. Other trades make as much as we do as first and second year AME's, as apprentices. When people see that, less responsibility, more money, no night shift I don't think its any wonder that we have people leaving the industry faster then we can replace them. I also feel its time that operators actually took the time to start hiring apprentices and training them. Hardest time I had to get a job was as an apprentice. With my license now I don't think I've ever not been called back for an interview. When I talk to the apprentices I work with now they say the same thing. They waited forever before someone phoned them about a resume. One way to fix an AME shortage is to start hiring apprentices and giving them a chance at becoming AME's.

Where I work at the moment they will pay you a whole $2 an hour more to have both your M1 and your M2. Nothing for getting type coursed on additional company aircraft. When the newer employees look at that they decide they have absolutely zero motivation to get the extra ACA's if they are not going to be compensated for it. We are currently losing AME's off the floor left right and centre to contract jobs both local and up north, and to my perspective there does not seem to be much going on trying to keep folks around.

Anyway. I don't think I've mentioned anything here that already hasn't been mentioned, or that everyone here doesn't already know about. In the end it's us that do it to ourselves. Aviation is an interesting industry where people (both engineers and pilots) are willing to walk over everyone else to get ahead. Whether it be quote way under cost to get a job, work for less or even as mentioned above work for free to get the experience. Until that nonsense stops. IMO nothing will change.

[all_ramped_up]

Where are all the younger AME's? and apprentices?

Working on the oil patch. Who is dumb enough to start a AME program right now when you can make big $$$ working in Alberta.

*cough*

I am... starting in September actually.

It's rather unfortunate that I have a passion for working with aircraft as well as flying them. Some people don't need to make $100,000 a year to be happy. Especially when a lot of that money goes into accomodation, living expenses and recreational drug use in YMM.

I'll take working 1900-0700 keeping a Twotter flying with the odd call-out to CNH2 in the middle of a November night to change a tire over slaving away on the Patch.

But that's just me.

[Adam_L]

I'm a recent grad from SAIT's Aircraft maintenance program myself and sadly I have seen a lot of my fellow classmates switch to other fields like Heavy duty maintenance or automotive work, and yes guys even decide to head back to the rigs. I think the biggest factor is the low pay. I know that we apprentices shouldn't expect a great pay right off the bat, after all we have to put in our due time, but we need to make a living for ourselves too (Calgary is damn pricey to live in).

However I also think that there aren't enough jobs where we can shadow an experienced AME and learn from them. I have a few friends who feel like they have just been thrown blindly into their work and they say it's a huge disappointment. As I have seen others state here, the biggest challenge for us new guys is finding someone to give us the time of day and properly train us, we are apprentices for a reason after all.

[frosti]

Where are all the younger AME's? and apprentices?

Working on the oil patch. Who is dumb enough to start a AME program right now when you can make big $$$ working in Alberta.

*cough*

I am... starting in September actually.

It's rather unfortunate that I have a passion for working with aircraft as well as flying them. Some people don't need to make $100,000 a year to be happy. Especially when a lot of that money goes into accomodation, living expenses and recreational drug use in YMM.

I'll take working 1900-0700 keeping a Twotter flying with the odd call-out to CNH2 in the middle of a November night to change a tire over slaving away on the Patch.

But that's just me.

Whatever keeps you happy. That sounds brutal.

[Pat Richard]

The industry wishes we all had low quality of life expectations like that, and it used to be that it was common. Not anymore.

From what I hear and see it appears more and more are abandoning the race to the bottom that is aviation maintenance.

nobody is more chuffed about this than me and the industry deserves it.

What to watch for now is what will be done to change this situation, to which I'd most confidently predict nothing, except attempts at mass importing foreign "engineers" or industry lobbying to have the standards dumbed down enough so people with minimal training can be signing out a/c.
What else is left for options if they refuse to pay or provide attractive work life styles?
The passionate ones are few and far between(thank phuk) so that demographic wont save them.

[brownbear]

the reality as I see it, 2 years of college really doesn't mean anything. The grads can't actually fix planes unless they were mechanically handy previously. You don't learn to be a mechanic in college.

But the shortage is experienced AMEs. Since the college is not enough to actually mean anything to fix planes, you needed to gain this knowledge working on planes.

It takes at most companies 3 years after college before you could ACA someone. And thats if the person has some drive and works on getting a licence rather than being career apprentices.

It's time the industry evaluates the trade and decides are we just meat on the floor or do we need this to be more of a 4 year college program and you come out licenced.

low wages, poor education, ridiculous pressure and responsibility... why isn't everyone in this trade?

I'd like to see them do away with bullshit logbooks, lose the apprenticeship and merge the E course with the M course and come out with some decent skill and knowledge.

[chowda]

was talking to a freind last week who is working in central alberta as a contract welder. he says that he sees billboards all over looking for welders and is always being asked if he wants a job. he is making 50 bucks a hour for the first 40 hours then time and a half after 40 hours which is $75 a hour plus liveout which he says easily pays for his hotel and daily meals.
he says that if he goes and welds on the rigs the rate is $120 a hour which is where he says he is going next. interesting to compare because he says his trade also is having a lot of trouble finding experienced people, but they seem to be much more proactive in trying to solve it. I'll never ever see that sort of deal in canada fixing airplanes even contracting.
he has a b pressure welding ticket.
not saying welding is great job, but anybody working on airplanes in canada is sure to have worked in pretty much the same outdoor conditions at some point and for a lot less money.
there is no way I would do the AME thing if i was comparing trades to get into right now. 10 years at those rates versus 10 years at AME rates Im pretty sure ends up as a big fail for aviation. thats like lottery money compared to ame wages.

[helicopterray]

On the helicopter side of things, one can make $50/hour on a contract basis.