A New Leaf

[Caballero]

So the sky didn't fall after all! Sure there have been concessions, but times are changing in ALL industries and we must adapt. The way I see it is that the handcuffs are finally removed from the company to ACTUALLY get out there and compete. It's no secret that the company has been in trouble and couldn't carry on the way it was, or everyone would be out of a job.

Competition is stiff in North America, times are changing and yeah it's not the same Air Canada that it used to be, but I foresee a bright future there. What's good for the company WILL ultimately be what's good for its employees.

http://business.financialpost.com/2012/ ... ation-win/

Let's use this opportunity to grow positive culture into the operation. Guaranteed this would result in gains for everyone, in all forms. If we could keep this thread to strictly positive energy would be most appreciated. Here's to the future!!

[biatch]

//Personal attack removed by Sulako. Please play nice.

[Legacy]

Another attack, Like Sulako stated, please play nice: Bandaid

[flatface]

Deleted

[Ivan42]

So the sky didn't fall after all! Sure there have been concessions, but times are changing in ALL industries and we must adapt. The way I see it is that the handcuffs are finally removed from the company to ACTUALLY get out there and compete. It's no secret that the company has been in trouble and couldn't carry on the way it was, or everyone would be out of a job.

Competition is stiff in North America, times are changing and yeah it's not the same Air Canada that it used to be, but I foresee a bright future there. What's good for the company WILL ultimately be what's good for its employees.

http://business.financialpost.com/2012/ ... ation-win/

Let's use this opportunity to grow positive culture into the operation. Guaranteed this would result in gains for everyone, in all forms. If we could keep this thread to strictly positive energy would be most appreciated. Here's to the future!!

You're kidding right? This is the one industry where the training investment and effort far outweighs the return, and the people who put the effort in get trodden upon. And you're celebrating? The Air Canada tub-thumping is the same tactic that all of our protected/regulated industries use and its dirty, and accounts for the large inefficiencies within respective sectors in the country.

I'll take it that your post was a display of fine sarcasm and leave it at that.

[Rockie]

Let's use this opportunity to grow positive culture into the operation.

And what an opportunity it's been. I can't remember the last time I had so much fun getting mashed under the bootheels of a federal dictatorship and a corporation that despises its own employees.

Bring on the positive energy...

[Caballero]

Hey brothers. Like you, I've experienced many parts of the industry both great, and not so much. I've also experienced the wrath of our own running rampant with rumors and doom and gloom breeding distractions, whining and a domino effect of negative culture.

It's up to us in the industry. Call it whatever you will, but if you're not happy with something then change it for yourself. The world's your oyster and there are TONS of opportunities in the industry out there. Imagine your EXACT same job while sitting beside a downer crew member versus the opposite, that's all I'm saying.

Air Canada is STILL a great job. Let's put the responsibility on ourselves to increase the positive!!

Try this again? Challenge yourself to refrain from negativity at least in this one thread. Positivity: there's lots, let's hear it.

[Rockie]

[chatman]

Ask the 2000 plus Aveos employees that turned a new leaf...I am sure they could blow some sunshine up your......

[yycflyguy]

Hey brothers. Like you, I've experienced many parts of the industry both great, and not so much. I've also experienced the wrath of our own running rampant with rumors and doom and gloom breeding distractions, whining and a domino effect of negative culture.

It's up to us in the industry. Call it whatever you will, but if you're not happy with something then change it for yourself. The world's your oyster and there are TONS of opportunities in the industry out there. Imagine your EXACT same job while sitting beside a downer crew member versus the opposite, that's all I'm saying.

Air Canada is STILL a great job. Let's put the responsibility on ourselves to increase the positive!!

Try this again? Challenge yourself to refrain from negativity at least in this one thread. Positivity: there's lots, let's hear it.

Hi Bruce! Looking forward to running the show at the LCC?

[Big Pistons Forever]

The inconvenient fact that CR and all the other AC management apologists don't want to talk about.

The total costs for pilots, including servicing the existing pension plan, represent less then 4 % of the total costs at AC

Screwing pilots will have a negliable effect on total operating costs at AC.

The problem is a bloated and sclerotic management structure combined with endemic inefficient operational processes.

The two most profitable North American airlines are Southwest and WestJet. The highest paid narrowbody pilots in North America work for Southwest and WestJet. The other thing the two airlines share are a lean management structure and long serving executives who sweat the details on achieving operational efficiency at every level and take a long view on building the enterprise. They understand that motivated happy pilots can more then save the difference on their pay premium on every flight by making the extra effort to be efficient.

[teacher]

Big Pistons Forever

[Rockie]

They understand that motivated happy pilots can more then save the difference on their pay premium on every flight by making the extra effort to be efficient.

Air Canada has reduced training to the absolute bare minimum because it costs, and that is a very dirty word around corporate headquarters. Despite that however they have seen fit to reduce it further by devoting precious training time during recurrent simulators to reminding pilots of all the things they do that burns fuel, and how they can reduce that cost.

Amazing.

It's amazing not only because they think we don't already know this stuff, but also because they think it will make a difference after brutally raping the pilots while the government held us down.

They appeal to and depend on our professionalism while forgetting that we're human. Very angry humans.

[altiplano]

lean management structure and... a long view on building the enterprise...

This is what is needed.

[CAL]

I suspect a troll or someone that has been spoon fed his entire life......don't let him suck u in guys......just looking for a reaction and no doubt is suppressing something bad from his childhood

[Norwegianwood]

I suspect a troll or someone that has been spoon fed his entire life......don't let him suck u in guys......just looking for a reaction and no doubt is suppressing something bad from his childhood

NO! Just someone who has been through the Harvard Business School and has a "better" education than everyone else...........

[jdm]

Hey brothers. Like you, I've experienced many parts of the industry both great, and not so much. I've also experienced the wrath of our own running rampant with rumors and doom and gloom breeding distractions, whining and a domino effect of negative culture.

It's up to us in the industry. Call it whatever you will, but if you're not happy with something then change it for yourself. The world's your oyster and there are TONS of opportunities in the industry out there. Imagine your EXACT same job while sitting beside a downer crew member versus the opposite, that's all I'm saying.

Air Canada is STILL a great job. Let's put the responsibility on ourselves to increase the positive!!

Try this again? Challenge yourself to refrain from negativity at least in this one thread. Positivity: there's lots, let's hear it.

You're farting against thunder, but for what it's worth, I'm farting with you.

[SeaBat]

Management want to believe that the Pilot's will "get over it". I don't think that this will be the case. I have never been divorced, but I have heard that this process has been much like a divorce. And, how many divorced men have gotten over being raked-over-the-coals by their ex-wives - I suspect none. So far the opposite has happened in the case of our new contract; our 'On-Time-Performance' (OTP) has fallen to an all time low of 25%. I suspect that this type of attitude will continue until either we win an injunction, or CR leaves.

[Rockie]

Bright side of things now is that you are STILL part of the best paid pilots in NA.

For me, you guys look like spoiled kids on this forum

Most Air Canada pilots already on the property will personally be better off if the company actually does what they say they're going to do. If you believe the company will actually do what they say they're going to do there is some property on Mars I'd like to sell you.

HOWEVER

We now have a "B" scale which in this case is the blunt edge of a very big wedge, and every pilot hired from this moment on can only look wistfully at their crewmate's pension because they will never get it. That will continue to create even more division as time goes on putting even more pressure on the existing pension holders as the new guys realize DC isn't all the company cracks it up to be.

Then there's the whole issue of having our right to negotiate a contract stripped from us. That's a VERY big deal that sets a VERY bad precedent whether you think we're spoiled or not. If and when it happens to you I hazard a guess you're attitude would be different.

[Rollercoaster Rider]

Rockie,
You should really save the poor me for the private forums.Nobody will side with you as the economic bubble burst on the rest of the blue collar world . 15% over 5 years is more than the rest got.Even the MP,s pensions are under question as they should be.25 % ontime performance and you suggest the company deserves it,what about the rest of us that cant go anywhere else ? LCC or whatever they want to call it is ok with most just looking for our paycheck to continue.

[126.75]

Rocky,

Do you honestly believe that when you retire (for me it will be >30 years) the company will still be toping up your DB pension? The way I look at it the DC pension is best for all new hires (as long as you are relatively young and can invest it!) I am not sure about you but the way I see it keeping your retirement as far away from AC as you can would seem sensible. It's one of the reasons (along with the new pay scale) that I am going to apply. I could not afford the first year before (mortgage and such) but now it makes sense for me.

I agree with you that the way these "negotiations" were handled was utter crap but honestly seeing how CR had you hog tied and your ass in the air he didn't seem to take advantage of that the same way he could of.

[SilentMajority]

[quote="...... and every pilot hired from this moment on can only look wistfully at their crewmate's pension because they will never get it. That will continue to create even more division as time goes on putting even more pressure on the existing pension holders as the new guys realize DC isn't all the company cracks it up to be.
quote]

Rockie...you appear to be convinced that AC's "promise to pay" DB pension for yourself and others is going to be better in the long run than the DC plan outlined in the new "deal".

I, for one, don't believe that and if I were coming onboard as a new hire and were given the choice of what was going to support me and my family 30 years from now.....it wouldn't be the promise to pay DB from our current plan sponsor.

[Rockie]

You should really save the poor me for the private forums.

It's not me I feel sorry for because my career at Air Canada will not last long enough for it to make a difference, it's the people who have 30 years left and everybody hired from this moment on. If you're one of those people then it's you I feel sorry for.

Do you honestly believe that when you retire (for me it will be >30 years) the company will still be toping up your DB pension?

Of course I don't believe that, and I'm not going to be here long enough to get the top up even if they did. The supplementary pension top up will be the very next thing to go no doubt pressured by the new reality of no DB pension at all. How can a top up be justified when the next generation gets nothing?

The way I look at it the DC pension is best for all new hires (as long as you are relatively young and can invest it!)

No it isn't. A sustainable DB pension is the best for all newhires and is achievable. The current deficit is a temporary condition that's just been solved by permanently eliminating the pension for every Air Canada pilot hired from now on. The simple fact is professional investment specialists working full time for you with a large chunk of money can do way better than 99.9% of the individuals. The money in a DB pension also has the invaluable advantage of actuarial averaging ensuring you an income for the rest of your life however long that may be. With a DC plan you do not have either of those advantages and whatever you're left with you have to make last for the rest of your life. And you have no idea how long that will be so you better be miserly with it.

[tbaylx]

Rocky,

Do you honestly believe that when you retire (for me it will be >30 years) the company will still be toping up your DB pension? The way I look at it the DC pension is best for all new hires (as long as you are relatively young and can invest it!) I am not sure about you but the way I see it keeping your retirement as far away from AC as you can would seem sensible. It's one of the reasons (along with the new pay scale) that I am going to apply. I could not afford the first year before (mortgage and such) but now it makes sense for me.

I agree with you that the way these "negotiations" were handled was utter crap but honestly seeing how CR had you hog tied and your ass in the air he didn't seem to take advantage of that the same way he could of.

Where are you planning to invest said pension? The stock market that has returned 0% over the last 12 years? Bonds which are yielding around 1%? Savings account or GIC's that are yielding less or the same? Why do you think most pensions are underperforming at the moment? Cause even the pros are having a hard time making break even with inflation. Good luck doing it on your own when you pay a 2% MER ontop of that. DB put the risk on the company, they just shed it onto the employees. The only return you can count on is the company match program, forget about making anything north of inflation break even on your investments long term. Buy and hold died in the 90's only alot of mutual fund managers are still selling the dream as they pocket your management fees.

[RFN]

milehighclub:

As a fellow Jazz guy I just wanted to say that in all likelyhood we are in for the same haircut come 2015 and if the AC guys want to be pissed about it on here, then let them go for it.