New Contract thread

[ACEshareholder]

Reading thru the agreement as per page 1....it seems to me that there is a little bit of political 'double talk' is going on here...ie:

Section added to “mitigate the effects for the Air Canada Pilots who may be adversely affected by changes being considered which could reduce the number of Embraer aircraft.”

• Junior pilots equal to number of EMJ pilots on July 31, 2012 protected from furlough (estimate 643 jobs)

• Protection “will not apply in the case of a reduction in the Embraer fleet due to adverse economic circumstances which also requires a reduction of flying hours or a reduction of other aircraft types operated by Air Canada.”

Would not the last bullet point negate the initial discussion on the mitigation of layoffs? In other words, does anyone else read this the same as me, whereas we ARE in adverse economic circumstances hence the arbitrated settlement...or are they referring to a condition of future CCAA?

The EMB175 may go to tier 2, but what about the remaining 190s?. They could not filter down due to the 76 seat capacity...so.....is CR going to park them in the next 5 mos....are the leases up on these frames???

Finally.....does anyone know if the LCC pay schedule begins @ year one for a 6 year ACPA pilot....in other words does this shiny new LCC machine have everyone enter at the year one pay scale when they step off the mother ship.

lots of questions....but hoping AC pilots pull through this as it is not good for anyone in the industry...

[rudder]

DAL pay rates are available for comparison. UAL/CAL just reached a TA and the rumour is DAL pay -$1/hr. AA will get a deal under CH11 but pay rates are not being targeted for reduction. Those are more reasonable benchmarks for a legacy North American airline. And as for LCC? Well, the rates aren't what many would like but at least AC pilots will be flying the planes. The same cannot be said for many other positions at LCC. CUPE is in for a rude awakening.

[whiteguy]

The EMB175 may go to tier 2, but what about the remaining 190s?. They could not filter down due to the 76 seat capacity...so.....is CR going to park them in the next 5 mos....are the leases up on these frames???

The EMB fleet is not leased, they are all owned by AC!

[Fanblade]

ACEshareholder,

Yes the EMJ job protection is just meaningless window dressing.

The 29:100 domestic ASM ratio however is not. Although it does not provide a hard number of guaranteed fins it provides a ball park guarantee. A range where fin numbers fluctuate somewhat depending on gauge and density.

The 190 won't be leaving the fleet until replaced. 5-7 years ish. It likely will not be replace one for one as the Corp is heading toward NB fleet renewal based on a single slightly larger gauged fleet.

To introduce all 60 705's at the regional fleet mainline domestic ASM's would need to grow 15%.

Expect a few less fins but larger NB aircraft. The widebody fleet is increasing ( inclusive of LCC)

AC still hiring.

What happens at the CPA carriers is unclear. The corporation doesn't have a lot of space to add ASM in a new contract without decreasing elsewhere or increasing AC domestic ASM's.

They have said mainline domestic ASM's are not going up.

[chatman]

And For LCC

Air Canada flight attendant

5.04 PURSER DC9, B727, A320, A319
B747, B747CFY
EFFECTIVE
JUNE 1, 2003
I (1st year)
II (2nd year)
III (3rd year)
51.72
55.82
58.82

Pretty sad that the Fas will make more for the first few years

[Floyd]

I think the new contract gives people the illusion that it is not that bad of a contract because the first two year pay has gone up but there is a potentially large reduction in pay in year 3 and 4 (presuming you can hold 320 f/o by then which is very likely right now). For those not on the property yet it might not seem like a big deal but for those in year 1, 2, 3 or 4 currently working at Air Canada if they bid out of their current position they become stuck on 4 year flat pay also, which isn't what they signed up for.

The new pension seems favourable (still not as good as DB provided it still exists when most people retire) because they had to make it palatable so that the arbitrator would choose their offer but they can reduce the contributions at a later time. Its kind of like the foot in the door theory. They just wanted to remove themselves from the DB pension this time around because they know next time they can squeeze a bit more money out of the RPP.

The LCC is going to pay 320 captains more than 767 and if you've never been captain at AC you go to year 1 pay (less than EMJ Capt. and widebody F/O).

The worst part is that a lot of people are worried that they won't have a job in the next 3 - 5 years because a lot of scope protection is lost. For those not at AC yet there is no job security (little for those at the bottom due to the economic hard time clause). I guess it's a good thing we get a pay raise, at least maybe we can maximize our EI payments!

[Fanblade]

The worst part is that a lot of people are worried that they won't have a job in the next 3 - 5 years because a lot of scope protection is lost. For those not at AC yet there is no job security (little for those at the bottom due to the economic hard time clause). I guess it's a good thing we get a pay raise, at least maybe we can maximize our EI payments!

Floyd,

That is simply not true. Mainline/LCC is guaranteed 77.5% of non international ASM's.

I wish ACPA would come out and say this. Instead they have focused on specific fleet numbers guaranteed being removed and as a result are leaving the impression jobs are at risk.

They are not.

[scopiton]

why are they not at risk if they don't guarantee jobs for those hired after aug 1st ?
just curious.

[TKTguy]

Just curious about the ASM ratio. Does this apply only to CPA or all regional flying?
Given the wording about AC having the ability to code share on Tier II flying.
This is a non issue with the CPA. However if the Tier II return to flying again as
we did pre-CPA is there a limit on this flying and aircraft seat limits?

[rudder]

Just curious about the ASM ratio. Does this apply only to CPA or all regional flying?
Given the wording about AC having the ability to code share on Tier II flying.
This is a non issue with the CPA. However if the Tier II return to flying again as
we did pre-CPA is there a limit on this flying and aircraft seat limits?

The aircraft gauge and ASM capacity ratio limitations include all CPA and codeshare regional flying.

[rudder]

Mainline/LCC is guaranteed 77.5% of non international ASM's.

That is true. The old calculation left mainline with a guarantee of 89.3% of the combined ASM's. Now it is 77.5% of the flying that is defined as "the combined ASM's less widebody international ASM's". There are also provisions for the percentage of LCC flying that is to be included in this calculation.

Not quite sure where this snapshot leaves AC today and what it will take in incremental mainline/LCC flying to even allow for the reduction/transfer of the 75 seat flying capacity to the CPA carriers to commence as the traffic numbers that are published are consolidated.

[whiteguy]

And For LCC

Air Canada flight attendant

5.04 PURSER DC9, B727, A320, A319
B747, B747CFY
EFFECTIVE
JUNE 1, 2003
I (1st year)
II (2nd year)
III (3rd year)
51.72
55.82
58.82

Pretty sad that the Fas will make more for the first few years

Just so we're clear, your comparing FO/RP pay from Aug 1, 2012 to In Charge pay from 2003?

Nice spin!

[Fanblade]

Mainline/LCC is guaranteed 77.5% of non international ASM's.

Not quite sure where this snapshot leaves AC today and what it will take in incremental mainline/LCC flying to even allow for the reduction/transfer of the 75 seat flying capacity to the CPA carriers to commence as the traffic numbers that are published are consolidated.

There is a little room but not very much. A Canadian North code share will tighten it further. Dropping the 175's puts them very close to violation territory. 60 instantaneous 705's at tier 2 would require a 15% increase in Mainline/LCC non international ASM's.

There isn't a plan to increase Mainline/LCC domestic ASM'S. The plan is to up gauge, a few less NB, with relatively static ASM'S.

I wonder if they even know what they have planned?

[rudder]

I wonder if they even know what they have planned?

That is the million dollar question They have been given the keys to the car but do they know where they are going?

[loopa]

Doesn't make sense to me why they would be hiring a bunch to simply lay them off ? Huh?

[Fanblade]

Doesn't make sense to me why they would be hiring a bunch to simply lay them off ? Huh?

There will not be any lay offs as a result of scope. Hiring continues. The amount of hiring will be impacted by the end of mandatory retirement in December.

[slickmag]

They know EXACTLY where they are going... They did it with ZIP, they did it with TANGO. Ask yourselves why.... ??? Is it a way to keep $$ off of the books? What ever it is, it worked for them twice and they are going to do it again and again. Now with the fed's on board making laws so they MUST choose the company decisions and doing it in plane sight show's you how corrupt this country really is. It's another slap in the face.

[hapyav8r]

Just wondering...

Jazz has been operating 65 RJs since the earlier part of the last decade. Now we are at 52 and shrinking as the Q400s replace them one for one.

I've heard rumors from pilots at mainline that scope is "basically" gone and that the regionals are now allowed to operate up to 120 seats unrestricted. Apparently from what I've been reading here this is not true. Unless someone could elaborate a bit more on the details of the new scoping rules.

The only thing I'm seeing that has any scope implications is "60 MJA up to 76 seats at the regionals".

My question is: Are the 60-76 seaters in addition to what Jazz already operates or is this a new restriction to lower the total number of jets permitted at the regionals to 60 with the allowance to operate them as 76 seats?

Thanks

[one8tee]

Hey...here is the deal from what I can figure out. CPA providers (Jazz, Sky regional or anyone else that pops up) can operate up to 60 medium jet aircraft up to 76 seats. Jazz currently has 16 of those 60.

For every increase of a MJA above the current 16 at a CPA provider, mainline must also increase by 1. So jazz could get 44 705's if AC got 44 more 320's. There is also a let that 1 wide body can be substituted at a 2 to 1 ratio..ie. 22 767's or some combination thereof.

There is an available seat mile (ASM) ratio of 29:100 that must be protected in the domestic system. I think the idea is to get rid of the embraers in favor of 737 or 320 equivalent and CRJ 100/200 in favor of the larger 700/900 or equivalent.

I'd guess this is all to facilitate a transition to a common narrow body type.


Hope this is correct and makes sense!

180

[Disco Stu]

For every increase of a MJA above the current 16 at a CPA provider, mainline must also increase by 1. So jazz could get 44 705's if AC got 44 more 320's. There is also a let that 1 wide body can be substituted at a 2 to 1 ratio..ie. 22 767's or some combination thereof.

Not quite correct. CPAs can now operate up to 60 76 seat MJA (Jazz currently operates 16 of the 60 currently) without the mainline adding anything. However if the CPA flying increases, mainline flying will have to increase to maintain the 29/100 ASM ratio.

After looking through the contract, the scope clause isn't as alarming as I had initially been lead to believe.

The scheduling rule changes however are terrible. As are the LCC rules and pay. And new hire year 3 and 4 wages, and course rights, and the reduction of pay rates that need grandfathering to make them look like actual raises. And on and on and on.

[jdm]

[quote="Disco Stu"]


After looking through the contract, the scope clause isn't as alarming as I had initially been lead to believe.

[\quote]

Does that mean you're going to post a retraction on twitter?

[Disco Stu]

There are still plenty of jobs at risk. You could drive a truck through the hole in the no furlough language.

What I mean is that the rumours were far worse (<120 seats, no ASM ratio, no LCC).

Instead of trying to troll me JDM why don't you grow a set and tell me who you are since you seem to know me?

[jdm]

There are still plenty of jobs at risk. You could drive a truck through the hole in the no furlough language.

What I mean is that the rumours were far worse (<120 seats, no ASM ratio, no LCC).

Instead of trying to troll me JDM why don't you grow a set and tell me who you are since you seem to know me?

I know who you are.

By the way, how is your wife doing those days ? And my kids ?

I thought everyone knew who he was. He's the guy who sent out all the petitions, right?

And how is asking a guy a question on a forum "trolling""???

[ilovelamp]

I know who you are.

By the way, how is your wife doing those days ? And my kids ?

Thats an odd question! is disco stu with your ex wife and now raising your kids? thats what I gathered.

[ilovelamp]

You're one fast bullet sunny, you'll go far in life

BTW, it's a joke. Were i come from, it's something you ask a guy when it has been a while you did not see him

aaaahhhh ok. and thanks, I was always told by my teachers growing up, that I was special.