A New Leaf

[126.75]

Rocky,

Do you honestly believe that when you retire (for me it will be >30 years) the company will still be toping up your DB pension? The way I look at it the DC pension is best for all new hires (as long as you are relatively young and can invest it!) I am not sure about you but the way I see it keeping your retirement as far away from AC as you can would seem sensible. It's one of the reasons (along with the new pay scale) that I am going to apply. I could not afford the first year before (mortgage and such) but now it makes sense for me.

I agree with you that the way these "negotiations" were handled was utter crap but honestly seeing how CR had you hog tied and your ass in the air he didn't seem to take advantage of that the same way he could of.

[SilentMajority]

[quote="...... and every pilot hired from this moment on can only look wistfully at their crewmate's pension because they will never get it. That will continue to create even more division as time goes on putting even more pressure on the existing pension holders as the new guys realize DC isn't all the company cracks it up to be.
quote]

Rockie...you appear to be convinced that AC's "promise to pay" DB pension for yourself and others is going to be better in the long run than the DC plan outlined in the new "deal".

I, for one, don't believe that and if I were coming onboard as a new hire and were given the choice of what was going to support me and my family 30 years from now.....it wouldn't be the promise to pay DB from our current plan sponsor.

[Rockie]

You should really save the poor me for the private forums.

It's not me I feel sorry for because my career at Air Canada will not last long enough for it to make a difference, it's the people who have 30 years left and everybody hired from this moment on. If you're one of those people then it's you I feel sorry for.

Do you honestly believe that when you retire (for me it will be >30 years) the company will still be toping up your DB pension?

Of course I don't believe that, and I'm not going to be here long enough to get the top up even if they did. The supplementary pension top up will be the very next thing to go no doubt pressured by the new reality of no DB pension at all. How can a top up be justified when the next generation gets nothing?

The way I look at it the DC pension is best for all new hires (as long as you are relatively young and can invest it!)

No it isn't. A sustainable DB pension is the best for all newhires and is achievable. The current deficit is a temporary condition that's just been solved by permanently eliminating the pension for every Air Canada pilot hired from now on. The simple fact is professional investment specialists working full time for you with a large chunk of money can do way better than 99.9% of the individuals. The money in a DB pension also has the invaluable advantage of actuarial averaging ensuring you an income for the rest of your life however long that may be. With a DC plan you do not have either of those advantages and whatever you're left with you have to make last for the rest of your life. And you have no idea how long that will be so you better be miserly with it.

[tbaylx]

Rocky,

Do you honestly believe that when you retire (for me it will be >30 years) the company will still be toping up your DB pension? The way I look at it the DC pension is best for all new hires (as long as you are relatively young and can invest it!) I am not sure about you but the way I see it keeping your retirement as far away from AC as you can would seem sensible. It's one of the reasons (along with the new pay scale) that I am going to apply. I could not afford the first year before (mortgage and such) but now it makes sense for me.

I agree with you that the way these "negotiations" were handled was utter crap but honestly seeing how CR had you hog tied and your ass in the air he didn't seem to take advantage of that the same way he could of.

Where are you planning to invest said pension? The stock market that has returned 0% over the last 12 years? Bonds which are yielding around 1%? Savings account or GIC's that are yielding less or the same? Why do you think most pensions are underperforming at the moment? Cause even the pros are having a hard time making break even with inflation. Good luck doing it on your own when you pay a 2% MER ontop of that. DB put the risk on the company, they just shed it onto the employees. The only return you can count on is the company match program, forget about making anything north of inflation break even on your investments long term. Buy and hold died in the 90's only alot of mutual fund managers are still selling the dream as they pocket your management fees.

[RFN]

milehighclub:

As a fellow Jazz guy I just wanted to say that in all likelyhood we are in for the same haircut come 2015 and if the AC guys want to be pissed about it on here, then let them go for it.

[Mig29]

I don't get it why are you guys arguing about this decision which is, as we all know FINAL.

I know that some of you will think it's horrible news, some will say it's not that bad for them but you have to decide now what is the best course of action for each one of you working there. The reality is life has to go on, and as some of you told many of us who were not pleased with Age 65 ruling - "deal with it and accept it". Right? Wasn't that long ago... Same goes to Air Ontario pilots who lost the case. And Canadian merger decade ago...and so forth....

Time for bickering is over folks, move on and try to make the best of it. In fact, lets try and preserve what we can, so we don't let the division amongst us blind us with personal hatred towards each other, and allow more "tiers" of Air Canada to establish on our territory.
WJ is serious about their WJR model and they obviously have shown they mean business before, so I would hope that ACPA and ALPA can manage to find a solution on how to prevent further erosion of their careers and prevent introduction of other "sky regionals" on our territory.

I mean it, for real people. Accept it, mitigate the effects and move on or find another hobby. Life is too short.

[43S/172E]

Mig 29 well said, could not agree with you anymore than what you just said thank you

[Legacy]

Yes but when is enough going to be enough. CR f**ked them now. He WILL do it again. Sorry to sound a bit on the naive side but goes back to the younger years. How do you get a bully to stop bullying. Punch him nice and hard square between the eyes and they stop. Maybe CR. needs an eye opener.

[teacher]

Do you really think there's anything you can do to hurt CR? Will tanking AC be bad for the employees or CR and his cronies? Management will just go get another management job without having to worry about seniority, pensions and schedules.

The ONLY thing we can do is be organized from coast to coast. No more pilot vs pilot. Standard non negotiable pay rates and 1 list seniority. The AC pilots fought hard to maintain the current status quo when it comes to cross company pilot relations so now the old problem of being stuck in your current position remains.

You fought a good fight, it's over and like Mig said, move on and make the best of what you have. The only way to improve the situation is to work with other pilot groups as a whole.

[vic777]

The ONLY thing we can do is be organized from coast to coast. No more pilot vs pilot. Standard non negotiable pay rates and 1 list seniority. .... The only way to improve the situation is to work with other pilot groups as a whole.

You would need a dynamic intelligent leader, someone with "People" knowledge and "Communication" knowledge well above normal. Someone who could articulate and sell the benefits to the Pilot Group.

[altiplano]

BUT..... at the end of the day, You will still be one of the best paid pilots in NA

United 12 years capt wide body= 193/hour
Continental 12 years capt wide body= 190/hour
American 12 years capt wide body= 205/hour
US airways 16 years capt wide body= 160/hour
Air Canada 12 years capt wide body= 269/hour

Those are only a few samples of the real picture you should be aware of

Actually... from the pay tables on the new contract. Just for clarity sake...

Air Canada 12 year capt 767 = 205.64/hr
Air Canada 12 year capt 777 = 243.87/hr

compare:

Delta 12 year 777 capt = 235/hr
... with a 12% raise coming over the next 16 months...

[Sea2Sky]

And don't forget LCC 767, $118/hr

[whiteguy]

And don't forget LCC 767, $118/hr

Try $182.30 for LCC 767......

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

Actually Sea2Sky is more correct. For the LCC, Capt pay is years in Status not years of service like mainline. Since there is a strong possibility of 320 FOs bidding their first left seat as 67LCC skipper then they would indeed get $118/hr.

[Rockie]

You fought a good fight, it's over and like Mig said, move on and make the best of what you have. The only way to improve the situation is to work with other pilot groups as a whole.

If you mean work with the other pilot's groups to get rid of the current federal government I agree. If you mean forming one union, one seniority list and one set of working conditions for all pilots in Canada then I'm afraid that's just not going to happen...ever. It is exceedingly difficult to get the majority of pilots from one single company like Air Canada to pull in the same direction to benefit their own group as a whole never mind concerning ourselves with other groups.

As for moving on I agree, we will simply have to do that and hope our democratic rights are restored on April 1st, 2016 so we can begin the loooooooong journey back to where we were one month ago.

The problem here is that the company not only expects us to move along, but be happy about it. That also is never going to happen. We've had our rights stolen from us by our own government, and our company has taken maximum advantage of that to impose a contract that sets us back 40 or 50 decades. Air Canada is also foolishly aggravating an already deplorable situation with recent decisions seemingly designed to incite rage.

Although my sense is we are resigned to living under this forced contract, we are also understandably very, very angry.

[rudder]

Actually Sea2Sky is more correct. For the LCC, Capt pay is years in Status not years of service like mainline. Since there is a strong possibility of 320 FOs bidding their first left seat as 67LCC skipper then they would indeed get $118/hr.

Wow. And they gave Jazz a hard time for setting the 757 rate at $155.

[Sea2Sky]

Actually Sea2Sky is more correct. For the LCC, Capt pay is years in Status not years of service like mainline. Since there is a strong possibility of 320 FOs bidding their first left seat as 67LCC skipper then they would indeed get $118/hr.

Thank you.

How many people with 12 years in who are already CA status are going to voluntarily go over to a place with CARs mins and no idea of what to expect? Whatever rules they put in place now are going to be better than what gets pinched out of the next contract. If anybody thinks that this is only the starting point, and that the LCC WAWCON will only get better after this needs to give their head a shake.

Oh, and is $182.XX comparatively any better for CARs min??

[whiteguy]

Actually Sea2Sky is more correct. For the LCC, Capt pay is years in Status not years of service like mainline. Since there is a strong possibility of 320 FOs bidding their first left seat as 67LCC skipper then they would indeed get $118/hr.

Thank you.

How many people with 12 years in who are already CA status are going to voluntarily go over to a place with CARs mins and no idea of what to expect? Whatever rules they put in place now are going to be better than what gets pinched out of the next contract. If anybody thinks that this is only the starting point, and that the LCC WAWCON will only get better after this needs to give their head a shake.

Oh, and is $182.XX comparatively any better for CARs min??

So why don't you guys explain all this in the first place instead of just posting an hourly pay rate.......

How many guys outside of AC know how the pay system at AC works?

People on here keep telling everyone, who may apply at AC that they should know the real story, yet nobody is telling them.

If your going to post the year 1 pay rate as a reply to the 12 year pay rates then explain why a 12 year employee will be at that rate!

[Mig29]

Here we go on with bickering again....Maybe Rockie is right, at this pace we will NEVER be one unified group of Canadian airline pilots.

But why not start with joining few groups together...or even just two. You all know which ones I'm talking about. It's not impossible, hard to do - yes. But not impossible!

(Later, too nice outside to sit here and be miserable reading all the posts )

[DBC]

Actually Sea2Sky is more correct. For the LCC, Capt pay is years in Status not years of service like mainline. Since there is a strong possibility of 320 FOs bidding their first left seat as 67LCC skipper then they would indeed get $118/hr.

Thank you.

How many people with 12 years in who are already CA status are going to voluntarily go over to a place with CARs mins and no idea of what to expect? Whatever rules they put in place now are going to be better than what gets pinched out of the next contract. If anybody thinks that this is only the starting point, and that the LCC WAWCON will only get better after this needs to give their head a shake.

Oh, and is $182.XX comparatively any better for CARs min??

So why don't you guys explain all this in the first place instead of just posting an hourly pay rate.......

How many guys outside of AC know how the pay system at AC works?

People on here keep telling everyone, who may apply at AC that they should know the real story, yet nobody is telling them.

If your going to post the year 1 pay rate as a reply to the 12 year pay rates then explain why a 12 year employee will be at that rate!

The LCC captain pay scales do not take years of service at the company into account, just years of captain service.

Example, a 20 year career FO moves to the LCC 767 as a Captain and goes down to ~119$/h

As far as I can tell from the matrix, it's the worst paying CA position in the company, a Year 1 EMJ CA at mainline is noticeably higher if it worked out that you had guys going captain that junior like back in the day again.

A 10 year EMJ captain going over would see around a 30$/h increase, but would be loving life working CARS rules.

The scale is supposedly a mirror of Transat, does anyone know if that 119$/h is accurate for them to start?