Oil Pressure line installation

[fleet16b]

I was visiting an airport today and was watching a pilot change the oil pressure line on a J3 Cub.
Instead of the traditional braided hose or metal line, he was using a clear plastic stiff walled hose material .
The practice that I was taught was that all hoses firewall forward should be either braided, copper or stainless so as to be more fire resistant.
Telling him this , he stated that I need to more modern and that currently this is now allowed by the FAA etc
I disagreed as this goes against everything I was taught and could not find specifics in CARS
Am I behind the times or what ??

[Colonel Sanders]

Did he get a tag with it?

I wonder if he's using that lightweight nascar junk. I
know two guys who have had those lines fail - Jurgis
Karyis and Gary Ward. I'm sure there are others.

[fleet16b]

No tags , just off a big roll he has.
Says it is good for high pressure etc
IMHO not a good practice but then again I was taught old school ..... so maybe I am out of touch but I will stick with the proven safe methods pertaining to firewall forward installations

[fleet16b]

Does any AME out there have a link to any official directive or documentation pertaining to
oil line , fuel or pressure lines firewall forward ?

[iflyforpie]

Really? Wow!

I will have to look up the standards, but I am pretty sure that plastic or rubber wouldnt meet the fire requirements. Heck, even steel braided stuff should be fire sleeved.

[Tiger Moth]

523.1017 Oil Lines and Fittings

(a) Oil lines. Oil lines must meet 523.993 and must accommodate a flow of oil at a rate and pressure adequate for proper engine functioning under any normal operating condition.

(b) Breather lines. Breather lines must be arranged so that:

(1) Condensed water vapour or oil that might freeze and obstruct the line cannot accumulate at any point;

(2) The breather discharge will not constitute a fire hazard if foaming occurs, or cause emitted oil to strike the pilot's windshield;

(3) The breather does not discharge into the engine air induction system; and

(4) For acrobatic category aeroplanes, there is not excessive loss of oil from the breather during acrobatic manoeuvres, including short periods of inverted flight.

(5) The breather outlet is protected against blockage by ice or foreign matter.

CARS 523.993 for line (a)

523.993 Fuel System Lines and Fittings

(a) Each fuel line must be installed and supported to prevent excessive vibration and to withstand loads due to fuel pressure and accelerated flight conditions.

(b) Each fuel line connected to components of the aeroplane between which relative motion could exist must have provisions for flexibility.

(c) Each flexible connection in fuel lines that may be under pressure and subjected to axial loading must use flexible hose assemblies.

(d) Each flexible hose must be shown to be suitable for the particular application.

(e) No flexible hose that might be adversely affected by exposure to high temperatures may be used where excessive temperatures will exist during operation or after engine shutdown.

[crazy_aviator]

Last time i checked, the fleet was a certified aircraft and you must replace the fuel line with the applicable replacement line with proper part number. We dont go replacing ANY pressure fuel\oil lines FWF with home hardware parts in Canada unless its decertified /homebuilt etc in which case your allowed to kill yourself in any way you wish

[fleet16b]

Last time i checked, the fleet was a certified aircraft and you must replace the fuel line with the applicable replacement line with proper part number. We dont go replacing ANY pressure fuel\oil lines FWF with home hardware parts in Canada unless its decertified /homebuilt etc in which case your allowed to kill yourself in any way you wish

The thread is not about a Fleet but a J3 Cub

I spoke with our inhouse TC Rep and he confirms what I knew all along and what most have posted in reply to my queries.
Many people are under the impression that if they buy aviation approved items from suppliers, then they can go on any aircraft whether listed by the Manufacturer or not because it is "aviation approved"
Furthering my conversation with the owners last night that was their impression.
They now understand the issue clearer and have removed the "plastic " oil pressure line.


Also many do not realize that all firewall forward lines hoses etc should be temp and fire rated , no nylon lock nuts etc that could fail due to high temps or fire.

Thanks for all the responses / opinions

[Colonel Sanders]

firewall forward ... no nylon lock nuts

Heh - you wouldn't believe the number of certified
aircraft that leave the factory with the engine compartment
full of fiber lock nuts!

Edit - it was Peter Besenyei who crashed his Red Bull racer
(in Ontario) when one of those lightweight NASCAR oil lines failed:

http://tinyurl.com/kk3kwj

My friend Gary Ward had one fail, flying across the Gulf of
Mexico. Landed trailing smoke, with 2 quarts of oil left in
the sump.

[fleet16b]

firewall forward ... no nylon lock nuts

Heh - you wouldn't believe the number of certified
aircraft that leave the factory with the engine compartment
full of fiber lock nuts!

Edit - it was Peter Besenyei who crashed his Red Bull racer
(in Ontario) when one of those lightweight NASCAR oil lines failed:

http://tinyurl.com/kk3kwj

My friend Gary Ward had one fail, flying across the Gulf of
Mexico. Landed trailing smoke, with 2 quarts of oil left in
the sump.

Ya I once saw a guy assembling a Champ and all the engine controls has nylon lock nuts on them
I try to mind my own business but when you see things like this ... well you have to say something.
Some can take the advice ... the ones that can't....some of them are no longer around

[fleet16b]

firewall forward ... no nylon lock nuts

Heh - you wouldn't believe the number of certified
aircraft that leave the factory with the engine compartment
full of fiber lock nuts!

Edit - it was Peter Besenyei who crashed his Red Bull racer
(in Ontario) when one of those lightweight NASCAR oil lines failed:

http://tinyurl.com/kk3kwj

My friend Gary Ward had one fail, flying across the Gulf of
Mexico. Landed trailing smoke, with 2 quarts of oil left in
the sump.

Also saw a brand new 0 timed Radial engine that had nylon nuts on the front case plate flange ( qty approx 20 -30 nuts) which the new owner did not notice
One hour into the first flight, the nylon in the nuts started to melt and oil was pissing out everywhere.
The a/c go down wthout damage to the pilot or engine but it could have gotten a lot worse.

[Colonel Sanders]

I am not a nice person. It is my opinion that the four
most satisfying words in the English language are:

I Told You So

PS I know of certified factory aircraft that come
with fiber nuts on the flight control bearing rod
ends. I know it's a low-temp application, but ...

Edit - being a parent teaches you to be phlegmatic.
Your first child, it gets the sniffles, off to the hospital
you go. By the time you get to kid #3 or #4, you're
a little bit more relaxed than that. You have to ask
yourself, "Self, does this activity involve loss of a body
part or any other permanent damage?"

I remember babysitting a young kid (not mine) many
years ago who was fascinated by incandescent light
bulbs in a lamp. I told him not to touch the hot bulb,
but he did anyways, and promptly burst into tears.

I told him, "Kid, you just learned two valuable lessons.
One: don't touch hot light bulbs. Two: Listen to what
I tell you."

I am not a nice person. I do not stuff butter up people's
@sses to make them feel good about themselves. This
causes various twits to not like me.

The above is not a non sequitur.

[fleet16b]

I am not a nice person. It is my opinion that the four
most satisfying words in the English language are:

I Told You So

I am not a nice person. I do not stuff butter up people's
@sses to make them feel good about themselves. This
causes various twits to not like me.

LOL

Excellent

[crazy_aviator]

crazy_aviator wrote:

Last time i checked, the fleet was a certified aircraft and you must replace the fuel line with the applicable replacement line with proper part number. We dont go replacing ANY pressure fuel\oil lines FWF with home hardware parts in Canada unless its decertified /homebuilt etc in which case your allowed to kill yourself in any way you wish


The thread is not about a Fleet but a J3 Cub

My apologies ,

The Part still must be found in the approved parts manual to be installed on a certified plane

[torquey401]

WOW! I firmly believe that ground school should include a few hours on the owner/operators responsibilities when it comes to maintenance.

[Big Pistons Forever]

WOW! I firmly believe that ground school should include a few hours on the owner/operators responsibilities when it comes to maintenance.

This one area that is poorly understood by the majority of private aircraft owners. The owner is responsible for the airworthiness of the aircraft. The AME is not. He/she is only responsible for the actions that were listed as performed in each individual maintenance entry. A great example of this was an entry I once saw.

During an annual inspection 2 cracked cylinder studs hold down studs were found ( ie the bolts at the bottom of each cylinder that attach it to the case). The owner said remove the cylinder and replace the studs. The only problem was there was an AD which said if the two or more broken studs were in a row then the engine had to be disassembled and the case checked for cracks. The owner did not want to pay for this expensive repair so he directed the AME to just fix the cylinder and ignore the AD. The AME did just that and the maintenance entry said "found 2 adjacent failed studs on cylinder No X. As per AD XX-XXX field repair by replacing studs not authorized. Field repair carried out, studs replaced and cylinder re-installed as per owners direction".

The aircraft is no longer airworthy as it is not in compliance with an AD, but the engineer is totally in the clear and it is all on the owner.

[ahramin]

All the lines forward of the firewall on my homebuilt are metal or firesleeved.

Oh, except for the manifold pressure line. Shoot. I guess I should replace that. But if I've got enough problems forward of the firewall that plastic lines are melting, is it going to matter that one cylinder is leaking air?

I'm going to go have a look for nylon nuts anyway. What about engine mounts though? I've got a Dynafocal 2 and the mounts are plastic and rubber and I think the nuts may be nylon lock nuts. I'm not worried about the actual engine, that was put together by AeroSport power in Kamloops, but the engine controls could have nylon locknuts. What's the deal with these things?

On to my actual question: When you install a new oil pressure line, how do you bleed the thing? I pre filled it with oil and cracked it at the guage while the engine was running and oil came out right away but I'm guessing there's still some air in the line at the top. Do you crack these things and run a significant amount of oil through? The guage is in a bad place to do that, the panel under it is going to be a great scoop and the only thing I have space to do is hold a rag against it, which isn't going to work if I pump a quarter litre out of it.

[crazy_aviator]

BPF,

The aircraft is no longer airworthy as it is not in compliance with an AD, but the engineer is totally in the clear and it is all on the owner.

In a utopian world, that statement would be correct, But in a real court of law the Engineer KNOWINGLY went against an AD and did a repair. If an accident happens ,,this is called NEGLIGENCE and IF the poor AME doesnt have the $$$ to defend him/herself, you can be assured he /she will be raked through the coals in an attempt to extract blame and $$ Dont kid yourself ,,,dont do the work and dont think you can sign only for the work done when YOU do contrary to the regulations !!!

[fleet16b]

I'm not worried about the actual engine, that was put together by AeroSport power in Kamloops, but the engine controls could have nylon locknuts. What's the deal with these things?

Well if you do end up having a fire or excessive overheat issue in the engine compartment , the insides of your nylon lock nuts will melt out rather quickly resulting rendering the engine controls useless.
Lock nuts or castlated nuts and cotter pins should be used on engine controls firewall forward
IMHO you would want control of your power settings for as long as possible while you try to put the aircraft down somewhere.
One even 2 more minutes of control is a big plus in a fire situation during a forced approach, believe me I've been there

[fleet16b]

On to my actual question: When you install a new oil pressure line, how do you bleed the thing? I pre filled it with oil and cracked it at the guage while the engine was running and oil came out right away but I'm guessing there's still some air in the line at the top. Do you crack these things and run a significant amount of oil through? The guage is in a bad place to do that, the panel under it is going to be a great scoop and the only thing I have space to do is hold a rag against it, which isn't going to work if I pump a quarter litre out of it.

You have to crack it at the gauge but you should not get too much coming out.
I just use a baby food jar to capture the flow.
You could also take the gauge out of the panel and hold it in a small pie plate below the panel while you do the bleeding
Once the flow is steady and not pulsing (sure sign of air in the system), reattach the line and watch the gauge.
If the pressure remains steady your done , if the reading fluctuates up and down , repeat procedure again

[ahramin]

The guage doesn't pulse at all so maybe the bleeding I did was sufficient?

Otherwise I think I'll pull it out of the panel to bleed it, there's just no room to get anything underneath it.

Thanks for the responses all.

[ahramin]

On an unrelated note, I'm in Germany right now and instead of ads for Chinese brides - or Vietnamese, can't remember but it's some communist country with a statistically improbable proportion of well endowed oriental women - I'm now looking at offers to FLIRTEN, CHATEN, and DATEN mit beaucoup blonde vimen. Unfortunately from my experience with the Teutonic Frauleins it's many, many, daten before you get to the sexten, and I've only got 48 hours.

Or maybe it's just me?

On a related note to the unrelated note, I'm now used to the y, z, v, and w being in the wrong place on the keyboard so I no longer zound like a German ven I tzpe, but I'm not sure how sings are going to go ven I get home.

[groncher]

firewall forward ... no nylon lock nuts

Heh - you wouldn't believe the number of certified
aircraft that leave the factory with the engine compartment
full of fiber lock nuts!

Edit - it was Peter Besenyei who crashed his Red Bull racer
(in Ontario) when one of those lightweight NASCAR oil lines failed:

http://tinyurl.com/kk3kwj

My friend Gary Ward had one fail, flying across the Gulf of
Mexico. Landed trailing smoke, with 2 quarts of oil left in
the sump.

Also saw a brand new 0 timed Radial engine that had nylon nuts on the front case plate flange ( qty approx 20 -30 nuts) which the new owner did not notice
One hour into the first flight, the nylon in the nuts started to melt and oil was pissing out everywhere.
The a/c go down wthout damage to the pilot or engine but it could have gotten a lot worse.

Not sure this radial engine failure was due to fibre lock nuts. Every radial I've ever seen (it's been a while mind you), had fibre locks all over the place. The only ones that weren't were the cylinder hold down nuts, which used pal nuts for locking. Just thought I would point this out.
Anyhow, I do agree that nylon lines have no place forward of the fire wall.

[fleet16b]

Not sure this radial engine failure was due to fibre lock nuts. Every radial I've ever seen (it's been a while mind you), had fibre locks all over the place. The only ones that weren't were the cylinder hold down nuts, which used pal nuts for locking. Just thought I would point this out.
Anyhow, I do agree that nylon lines have no place forward of the fire wall.

Absolutely was caused by the fibre lock nuts losing their locking feature due to heat.
All the nuts could be turned by hand and would not lock and oil was leaking excessively from around the flange.
I have the same type radial and there are no fibre nuts anywhere on it . Only nuts and pal nuts.
Fibre nuts were actually invented around the beginning of the 1930's but were not commonly used especially on aircraft engines. Fibre nuts really have no business being on a vintage engine as most were designed without them in mind . Most likely a present day choice by overhaul shops.

[Colonel Sanders]

I didn't know anyone used PAL nuts any more, but I
don't get out much.