Black and white horizons

[ettw]

Question:

Any operators of multi engine, turbine, IFR machines who still use the old black horizons with a single white horizon line?

Just wondering.

Cheers

ETTW

[Siddley Hawker]

There are other kinds?

[Cat Driver]

deleted

[boeingboy]

I don't believe they are legal anymore.

[ettw]

I don't believe they are legal anymore.

Why do you say that?

[Big Pistons Forever]

Question:

Any operators of multi engine, turbine, IFR machines who still use the old black horizons with a single white horizon line?

Just wondering.

Cheers

ETTW

Well I think it is a bit of a stretch to call a PFD with a black bezel and the tiny white line at the edge of the sky/ground picture "old". I mean most ME turbine IFR machines are still equiped with mechanical 4 or 5 inch horizons.

[Ref Plus 10]

I'm also curious as to why you would consider the black and white attitude indicators to "no longer be legal". I searched through the CARs, and can't find any standard definining what markings or colours are required to be found on an attitude indicator. Personally, I would like very strongly to see these replaced, particularly for IFR at night, where disorientation could very quickly occur. For example, getting a little close in behind a heavy aircraft and getting spun upside down on approach, if it occurs quickly enough, you may not know you are upside down until you try to recover from a rapidly decreasing altitude by pulling back and inadvertently putting the airplane even more vertical.

Ref

[Cat Driver]

if it occurs quickly enough, you may not know you are upside down

If it occurs that quickly you won't be upside down very long as the roll will not just stop in the upside down attitude.

[Ref Plus 10]

Point taken. Allow me to rephrase: If you are rolled 90 degrees, will you know which way is recovering?

[Cat Driver]

Yes.

[oldtimer]

I would think you are refering to the old Jack and Heintz artificial horizons that were installled in old airplanes.
I doubt if any of them would still work properly and getting them repaired is like trying to get anything old fixed. I will bet it would be cheaper to go new.

[jspitfire]

I've seen Twin Otters that still have them. And yes, these Twin Otters are certified for IFR. However, they also have a standby backup gyro, which is full-colour.

[Ref Plus 10]

Yes.

Would a pilot not trained in aerobatics, in the spur of the moment, realize? I understand pilot training (think waaay back) includes unusual attitudes, but for a pilot only trained in the basics, rolling the wings level and pulling back wouldn't quite cut it if you were to rely solely on the attitude indicator, as many do, with a decreasing altitude and increasing airspeed.

I have quite a few hours spent with these black and white attitude indicators, and managed to survive thus far. However, I still prefer the blue and brown indicators, and find them easier to see at night, and easier to decipher at a glance.

[Cat Driver]

Would a pilot not trained in aerobatics, in the spur of the moment, realize? I understand pilot training (think waaay back) includes unusual attitudes, but for a pilot only trained in the basics, rolling the wings level and pulling back wouldn't quite cut it if you were to rely solely on the attitude indicator, as many do, with a decreasing altitude and increasing airspeed.

When I learned to fly recovery from unusual attitudes using only basic instruments ( Airspeed / Turn and Bank Indicator / Altimeter ) using two stage amber so we could not see anything outside of the airplane was mandatory and you had to be proficient before you could take the commercial pilot flight test.

I did my unusual attitudes training in Cessna 140's as the Fleet Canucks were not set up for instrument training....( They did not have two stage amber made for their windshields and side windows. )

I did not get into aerobatics until many decades after I learned to fly so aerobatics have nothing at all to do with recovery from unusual attitudes on instruments.........

Maybe there is something wrong with the training industry these days if pilots do not understand the basics of flying?

[Ref Plus 10]

Maybe there is something wrong with the training industry these days if pilots do not understand the basics of flying?

I would agree that there is a serious deficiency in the training industry, I would even go so far as to say there is a disconnect between the theory taught and the actual practice of the theory (read: bubble wrap students...). That being said, I am not an instructor, and have no insight to the training practices these days, only seeing the finished(?) product, and I think that the disconnect may have something to do with the fact that these black and white attitude indicators are becoming something of an antiquity, although entirely still useful, however not as helpful to those not so in tune to their particular situation.
At the company I work for, there are still a couple of these black and white indicators, and there is a difference in performance (generally) that I've noticed.

[black hole]

Well: someone should bring them back; because they'er alot more dependable the the new crap thats out there!

BH

[Big Pistons Forever]

Maybe there is something wrong with the training industry these days if pilots do not understand the basics of flying?

If flying training back in the 1950's was so superior how come the GA fatal accident rate then was 4 times higher then it is today ?

[ea306]

Navigation with map displays on a hand held gps was not available back then.... Even something as simple as that has done wonders for lateral situational awareness which in turn should be able to enhance your vertical situational awareness.

Partial panel should be all that is needed to be able to figure out which way is blue and which way is brown.... The attitude indicator should be able to reconfirm what the rest is telling you. I am not of Chucks generation however . and instructors like Ron Yates whom he employed were able to deftly instill those skill sets early in my training which served me well many many years ago before I had the luxury of the modern technology.

Holy crap.... Did I just actually say that? My how time flies!

[Cat Driver]

If flying training back in the 1950's was so superior how come the GA fatal accident rate then was 4 times higher then it is today ?

you really should give your resentment towards me a rest.

I have willingly stayed out of the discussions on the flight instructors forum because regardless of what I write you take the opposite slant on it, do you want me to stay out of all the forums on Avcanada?

I can not answer your question in brackets above nor will I attempt to. Having never wrecked an airplane or slid one down a runway with the gear up I can only speak for my own experiences.

But one thing I do know is based on your fear of teaching in Fleet Canucks because of the lack of brakes on the right side you would never have been a flight instructor at Central Airways in the fifties because half the schools basic trainers were Fleet Canucks. By the way I did get my first instructors rating there and was hired to instruct there.

Now does that put your questions to rest?

You going to the next meeting in Victoria?

[Big Pistons Forever]

.

I asked a legitimate question. You are the one who is making it personal.........

Anyway it doesn't matter as it has nothing to do with the original question about the old style black and white horizon. The serious answer to that is virtually all of them have been replaced because they are pretty much unsupportable anymore as nobody rebuilds them. Having flown both I much prefer the new style as they are easier and more intuitive to fly.