A New Leaf

[Mig29]

I don't get it why are you guys arguing about this decision which is, as we all know FINAL.

I know that some of you will think it's horrible news, some will say it's not that bad for them but you have to decide now what is the best course of action for each one of you working there. The reality is life has to go on, and as some of you told many of us who were not pleased with Age 65 ruling - "deal with it and accept it". Right? Wasn't that long ago... Same goes to Air Ontario pilots who lost the case. And Canadian merger decade ago...and so forth....

Time for bickering is over folks, move on and try to make the best of it. In fact, lets try and preserve what we can, so we don't let the division amongst us blind us with personal hatred towards each other, and allow more "tiers" of Air Canada to establish on our territory.
WJ is serious about their WJR model and they obviously have shown they mean business before, so I would hope that ACPA and ALPA can manage to find a solution on how to prevent further erosion of their careers and prevent introduction of other "sky regionals" on our territory.

I mean it, for real people. Accept it, mitigate the effects and move on or find another hobby. Life is too short.

[43S/172E]

Mig 29 well said, could not agree with you anymore than what you just said thank you

[Legacy]

Yes but when is enough going to be enough. CR f**ked them now. He WILL do it again. Sorry to sound a bit on the naive side but goes back to the younger years. How do you get a bully to stop bullying. Punch him nice and hard square between the eyes and they stop. Maybe CR. needs an eye opener.

[teacher]

Do you really think there's anything you can do to hurt CR? Will tanking AC be bad for the employees or CR and his cronies? Management will just go get another management job without having to worry about seniority, pensions and schedules.

The ONLY thing we can do is be organized from coast to coast. No more pilot vs pilot. Standard non negotiable pay rates and 1 list seniority. The AC pilots fought hard to maintain the current status quo when it comes to cross company pilot relations so now the old problem of being stuck in your current position remains.

You fought a good fight, it's over and like Mig said, move on and make the best of what you have. The only way to improve the situation is to work with other pilot groups as a whole.

[vic777]

The ONLY thing we can do is be organized from coast to coast. No more pilot vs pilot. Standard non negotiable pay rates and 1 list seniority. .... The only way to improve the situation is to work with other pilot groups as a whole.

You would need a dynamic intelligent leader, someone with "People" knowledge and "Communication" knowledge well above normal. Someone who could articulate and sell the benefits to the Pilot Group.

[altiplano]

BUT..... at the end of the day, You will still be one of the best paid pilots in NA

United 12 years capt wide body= 193/hour
Continental 12 years capt wide body= 190/hour
American 12 years capt wide body= 205/hour
US airways 16 years capt wide body= 160/hour
Air Canada 12 years capt wide body= 269/hour

Those are only a few samples of the real picture you should be aware of

Actually... from the pay tables on the new contract. Just for clarity sake...

Air Canada 12 year capt 767 = 205.64/hr
Air Canada 12 year capt 777 = 243.87/hr

compare:

Delta 12 year 777 capt = 235/hr
... with a 12% raise coming over the next 16 months...

[Sea2Sky]

And don't forget LCC 767, $118/hr

[whiteguy]

And don't forget LCC 767, $118/hr

Try $182.30 for LCC 767......

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

Actually Sea2Sky is more correct. For the LCC, Capt pay is years in Status not years of service like mainline. Since there is a strong possibility of 320 FOs bidding their first left seat as 67LCC skipper then they would indeed get $118/hr.

[Rockie]

You fought a good fight, it's over and like Mig said, move on and make the best of what you have. The only way to improve the situation is to work with other pilot groups as a whole.

If you mean work with the other pilot's groups to get rid of the current federal government I agree. If you mean forming one union, one seniority list and one set of working conditions for all pilots in Canada then I'm afraid that's just not going to happen...ever. It is exceedingly difficult to get the majority of pilots from one single company like Air Canada to pull in the same direction to benefit their own group as a whole never mind concerning ourselves with other groups.

As for moving on I agree, we will simply have to do that and hope our democratic rights are restored on April 1st, 2016 so we can begin the loooooooong journey back to where we were one month ago.

The problem here is that the company not only expects us to move along, but be happy about it. That also is never going to happen. We've had our rights stolen from us by our own government, and our company has taken maximum advantage of that to impose a contract that sets us back 40 or 50 decades. Air Canada is also foolishly aggravating an already deplorable situation with recent decisions seemingly designed to incite rage.

Although my sense is we are resigned to living under this forced contract, we are also understandably very, very angry.

[rudder]

Actually Sea2Sky is more correct. For the LCC, Capt pay is years in Status not years of service like mainline. Since there is a strong possibility of 320 FOs bidding their first left seat as 67LCC skipper then they would indeed get $118/hr.

Wow. And they gave Jazz a hard time for setting the 757 rate at $155.

[Sea2Sky]

Actually Sea2Sky is more correct. For the LCC, Capt pay is years in Status not years of service like mainline. Since there is a strong possibility of 320 FOs bidding their first left seat as 67LCC skipper then they would indeed get $118/hr.

Thank you.

How many people with 12 years in who are already CA status are going to voluntarily go over to a place with CARs mins and no idea of what to expect? Whatever rules they put in place now are going to be better than what gets pinched out of the next contract. If anybody thinks that this is only the starting point, and that the LCC WAWCON will only get better after this needs to give their head a shake.

Oh, and is $182.XX comparatively any better for CARs min??

[whiteguy]

Actually Sea2Sky is more correct. For the LCC, Capt pay is years in Status not years of service like mainline. Since there is a strong possibility of 320 FOs bidding their first left seat as 67LCC skipper then they would indeed get $118/hr.

Thank you.

How many people with 12 years in who are already CA status are going to voluntarily go over to a place with CARs mins and no idea of what to expect? Whatever rules they put in place now are going to be better than what gets pinched out of the next contract. If anybody thinks that this is only the starting point, and that the LCC WAWCON will only get better after this needs to give their head a shake.

Oh, and is $182.XX comparatively any better for CARs min??

So why don't you guys explain all this in the first place instead of just posting an hourly pay rate.......

How many guys outside of AC know how the pay system at AC works?

People on here keep telling everyone, who may apply at AC that they should know the real story, yet nobody is telling them.

If your going to post the year 1 pay rate as a reply to the 12 year pay rates then explain why a 12 year employee will be at that rate!

[Mig29]

Here we go on with bickering again....Maybe Rockie is right, at this pace we will NEVER be one unified group of Canadian airline pilots.

But why not start with joining few groups together...or even just two. You all know which ones I'm talking about. It's not impossible, hard to do - yes. But not impossible!

(Later, too nice outside to sit here and be miserable reading all the posts )

[DBC]

Actually Sea2Sky is more correct. For the LCC, Capt pay is years in Status not years of service like mainline. Since there is a strong possibility of 320 FOs bidding their first left seat as 67LCC skipper then they would indeed get $118/hr.

Thank you.

How many people with 12 years in who are already CA status are going to voluntarily go over to a place with CARs mins and no idea of what to expect? Whatever rules they put in place now are going to be better than what gets pinched out of the next contract. If anybody thinks that this is only the starting point, and that the LCC WAWCON will only get better after this needs to give their head a shake.

Oh, and is $182.XX comparatively any better for CARs min??

So why don't you guys explain all this in the first place instead of just posting an hourly pay rate.......

How many guys outside of AC know how the pay system at AC works?

People on here keep telling everyone, who may apply at AC that they should know the real story, yet nobody is telling them.

If your going to post the year 1 pay rate as a reply to the 12 year pay rates then explain why a 12 year employee will be at that rate!

The LCC captain pay scales do not take years of service at the company into account, just years of captain service.

Example, a 20 year career FO moves to the LCC 767 as a Captain and goes down to ~119$/h

As far as I can tell from the matrix, it's the worst paying CA position in the company, a Year 1 EMJ CA at mainline is noticeably higher if it worked out that you had guys going captain that junior like back in the day again.

A 10 year EMJ captain going over would see around a 30$/h increase, but would be loving life working CARS rules.

The scale is supposedly a mirror of Transat, does anyone know if that 119$/h is accurate for them to start?

[rudder]

The scale is supposedly a mirror of Transat, does anyone know if that 119$/h is accurate for them to start?

Cannot vouch for accuracy:

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... ansat.html

[whiteguy]

Thanks DBC!!!

[TopperHarley]

The scale is supposedly a mirror of Transat, does anyone know if that 119$/h is accurate for them to start?

Cannot vouch for accuracy:

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... ansat.html

That's outdated. Current captain pay rates are around $120/hr topping around $183/hr. We used to have a raise every year for inflation, but that raise was frozen.

[ScudRunner]

The scale is supposedly a mirror of Transat, does anyone know if that 119$/h is accurate for them to start?

Cannot vouch for accuracy:

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... ansat.html

That's outdated. Current captain pay rates are around $120/hr topping around $183/hr. We used to have a raise every year for inflation, but that raise was frozen.

http://..com/?page_id=308

More accurate?

[TopperHarley]

Yeah those #s look about right as per our contract for the 2012 pay rates. Supposed to be higher but our raises were frozen for now. The per diems are higher though, currently $4.20/hr in Canada and $5.41/hr EU and $5.91/hr in UK. Per diems go up every year by a small percentage as well, so those are the 2012 rates.

[FICU]

Wow... those Captain rates for Canjet are shameful!

[Caballero]

Some great stuff in this thread. If we could just get rid of the bickering that has become a socially accepted norm, we'd be light years ahead of ourselves.

Sure it's not a perfect situation, but it's still a great one and we need to do everything in our power to preserve our own culture: something we ARE in control of.

As Mig mentioned, we need to accept it, mitigate the effects and move on. For those thinking that maliciously harming the companies efficiency or productivity will 'show them', you truly will only harm yourself and your friends.

Like it or not, the company has an opportunity to capitalize now if we can at least pull on the rope in the same direction as they see it. If we can dig deep and do this with our own sense of unity, we just may find ourselves as our own powerhouse, and have a little more fun while doing it.

[yycflyguy]

Some great stuff in this thread. If we could just get rid of the bickering that has become a socially accepted norm, we'd be light years ahead of ourselves.

Sure it's not a perfect situation, but it's still a great one and we need to do everything in our power to preserve our own culture: something we ARE in control of.

As Mig mentioned, we need to accept it, mitigate the effects and move on. For those thinking that maliciously harming the companies efficiency or productivity will 'show them', you truly will only harm yourself and your friends.

Like it or not, the company has an opportunity to capitalize now if we can at least pull on the rope in the same direction as they see it. If we can dig deep and do this with our own sense of unity, we just may find ourselves as our own powerhouse, and have a little more fun while doing it.

Rick is that you?

[Rockie]

I think it's perfectly normal and eminently predictable for people who have just been mugged to be pissed at the mugger. It is also perfectly normal for that anger to be enflamed by the mugger's invitation to let bygones be bygones, and to celebrate the mugger's good fortune with him.

If Air Canada wants the pilots "rowing in the same direction" after the way they've been treated it's going to take a lot more work on their part than a few pep rally memos