First Jobs

[Born2Fly]

Hi,

I recently started to fly a c182 for the local skydiving school. I tought it would be a good first job since I am a low time pilot (250hrs). They say I could start flying the PA-31 sometime next year, when I get 350-400 hours. Never the less, I am tired of explaing to them "We are in a CZ, I am not supposed to climb in a broken cloud layer." One of the pilots got a cadors for flying in and above an overcast layer, and dropping skydivers. IFR traffic had to be diverted.

I never got any comment from ATC so far, but I think I should start looking for an other job. I JUST got my commercial liscence, I don't want to loose it...

Any suggestions for first jobs. I am think about going trought the instructor training this winter, but I don't think its the kind of job I'd like...

thanks

[Masters Off]

Stand up for yourself and have tough skin. Skydivers are tough customers, and are rarely happy with the work we do. Remember that you're more of a service than anything else, and there'll always be someone "who's done it before".

I recommend that you find a way to stand up against your skydiver bosses, and if they can't accept that you, as the Pilot In Command (even of a C182) making flight decisions, then maybe you shouldn't be there. There are some great skydive companies around and some horrific. I don't know which one you're at, but the rules remain the same. Don't be over-cautious but do stand up for your rights, to the legal limit, and please be safe.

Any questions feel free to PM.

[andy_mtl]

Hey there last year u had made a similar posting as you, and I m ow how you feel.
It took a lot of standing up to the boss , and thank god I have a amazing chief pilot that backs me up with them all the time.
I made it to the pa31 left seat , and my CP said part of the reason why I got upgraded a year sooner than the average pilot at our DZ, is because I did stand up and took the right decision.

Remember, you are the PIC, it's your life and your license you put front line every time you decide to take off.

Feel free to pm me for more info, but don't let them put you down

[Born2Fly]

Well thanks for the advice. I guess it's like in every other job, it's not easy standing up to your boss. But in the end sometimes you have to...

Hey there last year u had made a similar posting as you, and I m ow how you feel.
It took a lot of standing up to the boss , and thank god I have a amazing chief pilot that backs me up with them all the time.
I made it to the pa31 left seat , and my CP said part of the reason why I got upgraded a year sooner than the average pilot at our DZ, is because I did stand up and took the right decision.

Remember, you are the PIC, it's your life and your license you put front line every time you decide to take off.

Feel free to pm me for more info, but don't let them put you down

Chief pilot is a skydiver... Happy your's is actually showing the good example.

[fish4life]

every cell phone has a recording device on in have them say your fired if you don't go flying into illegal weather on tape and you'll have them by the balls

[ericrobitaille]

Just don't be over cautious. Sometimes you might make a bad call and go up they back down with the skydivers on board. It happened to some of my co-workers.

I also just got PIC on the 182. I always liked the saying :

<< It's better to be on the ground wishing you had gone up, then being up in the air wishing you were on the ground.>>

[Shiny Side Up]

every cell phone has a recording device on in have them say your fired if you don't go flying into illegal weather on tape and you'll have them by the balls

More people in this industry should review their right to refuse unsafe work and how they go about said refusing.

[andy_mtl]

More people in this industry should review their right to refuse unsafe work and how they go about said refusing.[/quote]


Yes you are absolutely right, however, there is always the "get the job done" guy that punctually makes you look like an idiot, or incapable to fly an aircraft

And in my just two years of commercial flying, let s just say i had my fare share of times where i said no we don t go, and another pilot, goes to the boss, and :
OH, its ok i ll take it up, i understand how important it is for the operation to run smoothly without any delays....

I made it clear to who matters, next pilot i see doing so at work, i m making a report with the local fss. And so far this year has been much better than the last one, but still
it s not always easy to stand up for the simple right to wanting to fly legally

Andy

[SuperchargedRS]

I made it clear to who matters, next pilot i see doing so at work, i m making a report with the local fss.

That's going to be a great networking strategy for your next job!

[andy_mtl]

Well what would you do if you were in my shoes?
I m not ifr rated , neither is the plane, and a 702 ops that is vfr... should remain vfr.

I wanna have a next job, i wanan keep my license, i dont wanna have plenty of cadors beccause i decide to go up to 13000feet when there is a overcast reported at 2000 feet and i have two guys from the fss looking at me going thru it.

sorry if i wanna remain legal

[Colonel Sanders]

i wanan keep my license

Not sure if you're a troll or not, but ... just stop breaking regulations.

If someone asks you to do something stupid, dangerous or
illegal in an airplane - say NO. THis is a very serious problem
with young commercial pilots such as yourself - you simply
don't understand the responsibility of being Pilot In Command.

Let someone else do something stupid, dangerous and illegal -
with pleasure, no regret.

For your own records, take a picture of the pilot that steps into
your shoes when you refuse, and send a brief email to yourself
on the phone with name, date, time, location, description with
attached photo. You now own his @ss.

You probably never heard of him, but no one EVER f__ked with
J Edgar Hoover, for a reason. I'm not saying you should rat your
fellow pilots out - even the idiots - but it pays to sit on a mountain
of evidence that implicates everyone around you. Especially after
an accident, which is virtually certain to occur sooner rather than
later at a DZ.

Please remember: No job is worth dying for, or losing your licence for.

Edit - I like the idea of a little audio clip to go with the photo of each
illegal occurence. A real multi-media experience.

[SuperchargedRS]

Well what would you do if you were in my shoes?
I m not ifr rated , neither is the plane, and a 702 ops that is vfr... should remain vfr.

I wanna have a next job, i wanan keep my license, i dont wanna have plenty of cadors beccause i decide to go up to 13000feet when there is a overcast reported at 2000 feet and i have two guys from the fss looking at me going thru it.

sorry if i wanna remain legal

Well then YOU dont break regs, aint that complicated.

BUT THATS NOT WHAT MY POST WAS ABOUT

My issue is with you trying to get other pilots violated.

You are worried about CADORS and your license, how about the guy you turn in who (by his own dumb fault) gets nailed to the wall by TC, say the dude has 60k worth of education, wife and kids he no longer can try to support, debt to pay off AND now no license, because YOU snitched him out, put yourself in his shoes, then ask yourself what you would do if you were him and found out who the SOB was that turned you in.....

I'm just saying, in my shoes over here... unless someone targets me DIRECTLY, I make it a policy not to fu@k with others.

[DanWEC]

If you're doing something illegally, and unsafe, lowering the bar for the rest of us, you should probably take a long hard look at your decision making processes, especially if you have a wife and family to support.

RS, I see your point- and live and let live, but it's the same thing in my eyes as calling 911 on a drunk driver in front of you. Your phone call may cost someone their license, but it was the decision and illegal act in the first place that reallycaused it. You also very well could have saved a life.
I might not go as far as ratting out right to TC- initially, but I would have a pop with the other pilot and let them know where I stand and persude him/her to stick together. I guess it would depend on how much you like the person.

There are asshole operators out there though, but there is more to life than building hours, and you're only as good as the company you keep. I briefly held a a job this summer to replace a pilot who said "no".... to going over a duty day, and flying/landing a float plane at night. So amid other reasons, I only stuck around for a few weeks before high tailing it outta there.

[Cat Driver]

There are asshole operators out there though, but there is more to life than building hours, and you're only as good as the company you keep. I briefly held a a job this summer to replace a pilot who said "no".... to going over a duty day, and flying/landing a float plane at night. So amid other reasons, I only stuck around for a few weeks before high tailing it outta there.

I thought SMS put an end to those practices.

[andy_mtl]

Let's make something clear, I do not break regulations .
And I expect others to do the same, cause if we ops gets grounded, then we re all out of work.
One s action can have a impact on everybody at work, it should be everyone s responsibility to maintain the work environment safe.

[Beefitarian]

It is everyone's responsibility to follow regulations. The problem is some people don't care and will break rules. How that turns out depends on many factors including but not limited to the rule in question. Skydiving is a pretty extreme sport, that tends to breed, "I can do it!" attitudes. Make sure you discuss why you wish to follow the rules, if you still end up getting let go it might be for the best.

Wether or not you wish to bring such things to Transport's attention is obviously a huge debate.

Sure if a guy loses his license it might be tough on his family. Will it be worse than losing him to a crash?

[SuperchargedRS]

...think my last post got china style censored lol

Anyway

If it's a safety concern talk first talk to the pilot, then to the DZO, if it is that obvious that some pilot is going to pile a plane in, the DZO is sure as heck going to take issue with it.

[ericrobitaille]

By the way, no pilot is depending on a DZ for food on the table. Regardless, pilots flying in unsafe conditions on purpose should of course be warned or else. Espescialy since no one is inssured on theese DZ planes.

I can just imagine customer comes in for 1st jump, and before you know it, signs that waiver. Sometime I wonder if they know what there are getting into. I as a DZ pilot myself can think of a millions things that can go wrong. With that said, I don't know why you would want to get into IFR conditions with the bare minimum VFR instruments that most DZ airplanes have. And with that, we all know that DZ airplanes aren't maintained like Airforce 1.

[Cat Driver]

One of the pilots got a cadors for flying in and above an overcast layer, and dropping skydivers. IFR traffic had to be diverted.

The pilot "" ONLY "" got a CADORS ??

He/she should have got a license suspension.

[Born2Fly]

Alright thank you all, it as given me alot to think about.

[SuperchargedRS]

By the way, no pilot is depending on a DZ for food on the table. Regardless, pilots flying in unsafe conditions on purpose should of course be warned or else. Espescialy since no one is inssured on theese DZ planes.

I can just imagine customer comes in for 1st jump, and before you know it, signs that waiver. Sometime I wonder if they know what there are getting into. I as a DZ pilot myself can think of a millions things that can go wrong. With that said, I don't know why you would want to get into IFR conditions with the bare minimum VFR instruments that most DZ airplanes have. And with that, we all know that DZ airplanes aren't maintained like Airforce 1.

Not all DZs are created equal, there are a few stateside, for example, that pay rather well and have some VERY good equipment.

[andy_mtl]

For cat:

yes there was only one cadors issues for dropping thru a overcast, and that was 3 years ago.( Erik and i work in the same place )
the chief pilot was and still is furious about that, and we work quite hard, with now a almost new team, to run a efficient and safe operation.
No his license was not suspended.


This year i ve done over 80% of the flying for the company i work for , and i have a great relationship with the navcanada guys that work at our airport and have gone see them if there was something we could do to make it even better for them.

Like Erik said, no one pays his/her food onthe table with a pay from a DZ, i personally do it cause i m totally enjoying my time there, i liek the style of flying , most people are very nice to be around)

But again, for all of you that havent been inside a jump plane before.... i would liek to ahve you go inside, and you ll soon realize that they are not equipped not even to pass thru a 500 feet cloud.

what born2fly brought up is a serious concern that thank god TC in starting to adress lately. how: during a audit, they do ask pilot if the do feel forced to go thru ceelings, or operate in a unsafe manner.
Or even better now adays, most drop zones aroudn the montreal area go up to 14000 feet.... with lets say a navajo... and where is your oxygen system? yes excatly there isnt.

Every year i ve been on avcanada i see aroudn the end of december, posting such as: Oh, l et hope this year is a better one( with less deaths and accidents)
isn t it better to start following the rules a bit more, and sometimes we all say, no we dont take that flight up, we ll wait for better weather or we ll wait to have the plane properly fixed?
that way yes accident will still happen, but im sure in much less numbers as they do now.

Andy

[Colonel Sanders]

dropping thru a overcast

Now I remember ... does anyone recall a famous incident,
perhaps 30 years ago, when a jump plane dropped a bunch
of parachutists through a solid overcast ... but the pilot didn't
realize he was over water, and all the parachutists drowned?

There was hell to pay about that one.

[Masters Off]

Supposedly they based their spotting technique was based on sound and radio work. When a person on the ground heard the aircraft fly over, they radioed the aircraft then the aircraft dropped the jumpers. --It wasn't the skydiver aircraft that flew over, and as such they all drown. What a horrifically stupid way of dropping divers.

[dazednconfused]

Well what would you do if you were in my shoes?
I m not ifr rated , neither is the plane, and a 702 ops that is vfr... should remain vfr.

I wanna have a next job, i wanan keep my license, i dont wanna have plenty of cadors beccause i decide to go up to 13000feet when there is a overcast reported at 2000 feet and i have two guys from the fss looking at me going thru it.

sorry if i wanna remain legal

Well then YOU dont break regs, aint that complicated.

BUT THATS NOT WHAT MY POST WAS ABOUT

My issue is with you trying to get other pilots violated.

You are worried about CADORS and your license, how about the guy you turn in who (by his own dumb fault) gets nailed to the wall by TC, say the dude has 60k worth of education, wife and kids he no longer can try to support, debt to pay off AND now no license, because YOU snitched him out, put yourself in his shoes, then ask yourself what you would do if you were him and found out who the SOB was that turned you in.....

I'm just saying, in my shoes over here... unless someone targets me DIRECTLY, I make it a policy not to fu@k with others.

So when i see a drunk driver going down the highway, all over the road, i shouldnt call the RCMP because he might lose his license, and possibly his job, all because he cant make a proper judgement call? Maybe that'll keep him off the road from killing an innocent family on summer vacation. Your license is a priviledge... not a right to do as you please, even as you say, is by his own dumb fault.