Counting 'Block time' hours

[MikeGolfEcho]

Good afternoon all,

I was told recently that if you buy block time from a person who privately owns their own aircraft you can't count any time you fly in it unless you're part owner of the aeroplane. Is this true? Can you be put on the insurance for that plane with the owner without BEING an owner or do you have to take out your own insurance as a 'renter' of block time?

Having paid for block time, would it then be possible to take lessons in this plane and count them as CPL dual time or would there be insurance implications for the instructor?

As you can guess, I'm looking at ways of reducing cost of my CPL by buying block time and using it for hour building and hopefully my dual lessons.

Thanks for the advice as always!

MGE

[DanWEC]

Whoever said it can't be counted is totally incorrect. Of course it's valid time.... If you're licensed already.
In this situation there is no need to be an owner.

You must be added to the owners insurance in order to log PIC though... Or hold our own liability insurance for the minimum required amount.

As far as getting instruction on it, not sure about the requirement of the plane or instructor being involved with an FTU, someone else can chime in there.

[MikeGolfEcho]

Whoever said it can't be counted is totally incorrect. Of course it's valid time.... If you're licensed already.
In this situation there is no need to be an owner.

You must be added to the owners insurance in order to log PIC though... Or hold our own liability insurance for the minimum required amount.

As far as getting instruction on it, not sure about the requirement of the plane or instructor being involved with an FTU, someone else can chime in there.

Oh OK, so I can take out my own liability insurance (I currently hold a PPL), fly the machine solo and count it all as PIC. That's good to know, although how would I be listed on the owners insurance without being an owner?

Thanks again

[DanWEC]

The insurance aspect is an item I've heard people have differing views about. Funny, how something like laws and insurance can be debated.

The owners needs insurance on the plane, as per CARS 606. I could be wrong about just personal liability applying to flying someone else's plane.

It may be legal in Transports eyes, but I'd speculate that, given any sort of claim or damage on the plane, that the hull insurance (if applicable) wouldn't cover a dime if you weren't listed.
You don't have to be an owner to be on the insurance, not all pilots are owners! Like a secondary driver for a car.

Many people here could answer the insurance aspect better than I, but as for the block time, it counts.

[Colonel Sanders]

you can't count any time you fly in it

Ummm ... if you're up in it by yourself, who is PIC?

[MIQ]

you can't count any time you fly in it

Ummm ... if you're up in it by yourself, who is PIC?

Obviously the aircraft owner who is sitting at home watching TV and is logging all that PIC time

[DanWEC]

Multi Level Marketing PIC!! Brilliant!

[ericrobitaille]

Just got my CPL on a private 172 (not mine) a few months ago. There was a mix up in the CARs not being well tranlated from english to french. Talked with TC they said they'd get that fixed-up. Basically in english it says that the instructor needs to own a part of the plane for it to be ok. In french it said that it was ok as long a the instructor had no part on the plane.

I think your ok for a CPL, but I'd still give TC a call. You don't want to do all your time then have the autorized agent that's gonna sign you liscence tell you they don't count. Plus he's going to need the journey log, and the C of R of the airplane before he signs your liscence. Make sure the hours in the journey log matches your PTR and your logbook!

Pretty sur you can log PIC since you already have a private liscence right? To me it's no different then flight a school plane solo.

PM me if you want the CARs #, I still have a copy somewhere.
Eric

[Colonel Sanders]

I think there are two distinct questions being asked here:

Q: I am a PPL. Can I log PIC on an airplane that someone
else (e.g. private owner block time) owns?

A: Sure, as long as you obey all CARs, including CAR 606.02(8)
(liability insurance)


Q: Given the scenario above, can I receive dual flight instruction
towards my CPL?

A: Sure you can. A couple of requirements: the instructor must
have at least a class 3 (or 2, or 1 - ha) instructor rating to "freelance"
because this training is NOT being given by an FTU. Also, your
instructor must comply with CAR 406.03(2)(b)(iii):

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... htm#406_03

using an aircraft that has been obtained from a person who is at arm’s length from the flight instructor, and the training is other than toward obtaining a pilot permit - recreational or a private pilot licence.

In addition, CAR 406.03(3) must be complied with:

In the case of flight training conducted under subparagraph (2)(b)(iii), the flight instructor shall:

(a) notify the Minister in writing of
(i) the name and address of the person to receive the training,
(ii) the registration of the aircraft to be used,
(iii) the type of training to be conducted,
(iv) the location of the training operations, and
(v) the name and licence number of the flight instructor; and

(b) provide the information to the Minister
(i) prior to commencing training operations,
(ii) within 10 working days after any change to the information, and
(iii) when the training is discontinued.

If your freelance instructor doesn't know this, run away
from him and get another that does.

[Krimson]

using an aircraft that has been obtained from a person who is at arm’s length from the flight instructor, and the training is other than toward obtaining a pilot permit - recreational or a private pilot licence.

Arm's length...that is pretty weird wording to me to be in the CARs. What does that mean? The owner has to be in the aircraft with you with his hand on your shoulder? He can't sit in the back either i guess..

[Colonel Sanders]

Arm's length...What does that mean?

Regardless of what anyone here will tell you, only the
Federal Court of Appeals has the correct interpretation,
because it's impossible to get on the docket for the Supreme
Court on cases involving the CARs.

You have to be a pretty good lawyer if you want to fly an
airplane in Canada, due to the government's need to be
intimately involved in every aspect of your life.

[Big Pistons Forever]

using an aircraft that has been obtained from a person who is at arm’s length from the flight instructor, and the training is other than toward obtaining a pilot permit - recreational or a private pilot licence.

Arm's length...that is pretty weird wording to me to be in the CARs. What does that mean? The owner has to be in the aircraft with you with his hand on your shoulder? He can't sit in the back either i guess..

Basically it means the instructor can't own the aircraft. What TC doesn't want is someone buying an aircraft and then offering flight training on it to everyone under the auspices of CAR 406.03, or in other words acting as a flight training unit without jumping through all the hoops required to get and hold a FTU operating certificate; a not unreasonable position IMO.

In practice instructors who try this will get shopped by any FTU effected because they do not want to be under cut by somebody who doesn't have the expenses inherent in running an approved FTU.

There should be no problem if you buy a block of hours from a private owner and then hire an instructor that has no relationship with the owner of the aircraft. In practice I think this is relatively rare because as was mentioned earlier many owners don't want their personal airplane "treated like a rental". I own a Grumman AA1B two seat trainer that I use as personal run about. Over the years I have had a couple of people ask if I would rent it out. In every case after asking around about the individual I quickly came to the decision that I did not want these people flying my airplane. I suppose that one day if I met someone who impressed me with their both their character and their honest commitment to operate the aircraft properly, I might entertain a block time proposal, but I have high standards.....

Buying a share in an aircraft is certainly viable, but care needs to be taken. The partnership agreement has to be airtight and clearly describe everyone's responsibilities. In any case ownership means you own any problems that come up. So if the day after you buy your share the engine dies then you are on the hook for your portion of $ 25,000 . Personally I would treat buying a share of an airplane the same way I would if I was buying the whole airplane. That is I would have an independent AME conduct a prepurchase inspection and I would do a lien search. In addition I would have a lawyer vet the partnership agreement.

I know of two individuals that were badly burned buying a share of an aircraft. Basically the two owners knew some expensive repairs were due and so they went out to find two suckers to buy shares so that the expenses could be spread around.

As for insurance it is important to know that there are 2 kinds of aircraft insurance, Liability and hull. "Hull" is like collision insurance for your car. It pays to fix the aircraft if it is damaged. Personally I think anyone who buys block time without full hull coverage is insane. The best way is if you are a "named pilot" on the aircrafts policy. Basically this means the owner who will have bought insurance for both himself and the aircraft contacts the insurance company and adds you to his policy. The insurance company will then send a new insurance form to carry in the airplane which will have your name listed in the "approved pilots" section.

[MikeGolfEcho]

There should be no problem if you buy a block of hours from a private owner and then hire an instructor that has no relationship with the owner of the aircraft. In practice I think this is relatively rare because as was mentioned earlier many owners don't want their personal airplane "treated like a rental". I own a Grumman AA1B two seat trainer that I use as personal run about. Over the years I have had a couple of people ask if I would rent it out. In every case after asking around about the individual I quickly came to the decision that I did not want these people flying my airplane. I suppose that one day if I met someone who impressed me with their both their character and their honest commitment to operate the aircraft properly, I might entertain a block time proposal, but I have high standards.....

OK, so here's the thing. What constitutes a relationship? The guy I would potentially buying block time from owns a 172. He is currently a student pilot at the same school I just got my private licence from and am now working towards my CPL at.

His instructor is my instructor so there is a 'relationship' there between aircraft owner and instructor as we go to the same school. Only difference would be that now we'd be asking him to instruct in a private plane, not one of the schools

[DanWEC]

Why not just do the dual time and instruction at the FTU, and do the solo PIC time building on your own in whatever plane you want?

[MikeGolfEcho]

I think there are two distinct questions being asked here:

Q: I am a PPL. Can I log PIC on an airplane that someone
else (e.g. private owner block time) owns?

A: Sure, as long as you obey all CARs, including CAR 606.02(8)
(liability insurance)


Q: Given the scenario above, can I receive dual flight instruction
towards my CPL?

A: Sure you can. A couple of requirements: the instructor must
have at least a class 3 (or 2, or 1 - ha) instructor rating to "freelance"
because this training is NOT being given by an FTU. Also, your
instructor must comply with CAR 406.03(2)(b)(iii):

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... htm#406_03

using an aircraft that has been obtained from a person who is at arm’s length from the flight instructor, and the training is other than toward obtaining a pilot permit - recreational or a private pilot licence.

In addition, CAR 406.03(3) must be complied with:

In the case of flight training conducted under subparagraph (2)(b)(iii), the flight instructor shall:

(a) notify the Minister in writing of
(i) the name and address of the person to receive the training,
(ii) the registration of the aircraft to be used,
(iii) the type of training to be conducted,
(iv) the location of the training operations, and
(v) the name and licence number of the flight instructor; and

(b) provide the information to the Minister
(i) prior to commencing training operations,
(ii) within 10 working days after any change to the information, and
(iii) when the training is discontinued.

If your freelance instructor doesn't know this, run away
from him and get another that does.

That sounds great, thanks Colonel

[Steve Pomroy]

OK, so here's the thing. What constitutes a relationship? The guy I would potentially buying block time from owns a 172. He is currently a student pilot at the same school I just got my private licence from and am now working towards my CPL at.

His instructor is my instructor so there is a 'relationship' there between aircraft owner and instructor as we go to the same school. Only difference would be that now we'd be asking him to instruct in a private plane, not one of the schools

Transport Canada has chosen not to define "Arm's Length". However, it is a concept that shows up quite a bit in taxation, so CRA has published an interpretation bulletin here: http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/tp/it419r2/. Although it's from a different department of the government and references the Income Tax Act, not the Aeronautics Act, you're probably safe from enforcement action if you use it as a guideline.

Cheers,
Steve
http://www.flightwriter.com

[MikeGolfEcho]

Why not just do the dual time and instruction at the FTU, and do the solo PIC time building on your own in whatever plane you want?

The idea was to save money, I'll need at least 35 hours dual at $130/hour for the plane (+ tax of course) AND $55/hour for the instructor.

I was hoping to buy block time for about $100/hour - saving me about $48.20/hour dual or $1687 for the 35 hours dual I'll need.

[rapid602]

Hey Mike Golf Echo ....

Question for you !!!

If you are building time for a Licence ... ie Commercial Pilot ... Instrument Rating etc..

Is the money spent not tax deductable from you income tax as an expense.

I just renewed my Multi IFR last year and got a tax slip from the FTU. If you are buying block time and getting a freelance instructor ... is it tax deductable ??? I am not sure but I think others in here my know. Does that affect the end cost for the extra efforts of buting time and getting a flight instructor.

Anyone know what the answer is ??? Please jump in. I am sure the Colonel knows something about this, more info than I can offer ....

[Colonel Sanders]

I am NOT an expert on RevCan (though I will admit I greatly
enjoyed my last audit) but I might humbly suggest that without
the appropriate form being filled in - I forget the number something
like T11B - you would probably have the deduction disqualified
during an audit.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pbg/tf/tl11b ... ll-11e.pdf

I do not know of a single freelance instructor that issues
these forms, but hey, I don't get out much.

[MikeGolfEcho]

I am NOT an expert on RevCan (though I will admit I greatly
enjoyed my last audit) but I might humbly suggest that without
the appropriate form being filled in - I forget the number something
like T11B - you would probably have the deduction disqualified
during an audit.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pbg/tf/tl11b ... ll-11e.pdf

I do not know of a single freelance instructor that issues
these forms, but hey, I don't get out much.

Rapid602 - good question, I was told by the FTU that I could claim the tax back, and so considering the above, I may not be that far ahead if I went the 'block-time freelance instructor' route?! Hmmm...

[DanWEC]

Good question rapid! Answer is no, unless the freelance instructor is registered with, and member of the MTCU. (ministry of colleges, training, and universities) Which he won't be, since that only applies to vocational colleges.... Such as an FTU.

How that applies to a rating renewal... I could not say not for sure.

[rapid602]

I have an ATPL .... I let my instrument rating lapse for many years. I wanted to get it back and reactivate my ATPL.

I wrote the INRAT ... The Aero Course I took issued me a $300 ??? exact figure not sure of but close enough ... education deduction ... I went to Perimeter Airlines in Winnipeg to do my Multi IFR. ... I couldn't finish it there because we ran into time problems as I had to go back to work as my vaction time was only two weeks and I had to drive.... Perimeter issed me a tax Slip for my training.

I finished it a Waterloo Flying Club ... and they issed me a Tax Slip for education deduction. and that was because I was going to get a rating.

If the training is done in qualified FTU ... there is a tax slip issued for the training I THINK .... If you are training for a LICENCE OR A RATING. Don't quote me ... but you should check it out... the saving on your taxes would be large. If anyone else knows more ...please jump in.... I think its something that should figure into you thought process. It might reduce your costs by $20/hour or more depending on your income.... That figure is just a wild guess.

[habs.fan]

Here's a relevant question:

I've flown x amount of time on another owner's aircraft for my CPL time, purchased as a block in the legal way mentioned above, yada yada yada. I have it all recorded in my personal logbook & PTR, the figures match the journey log exactly and I have photos of the journey log entries. I have never had my logbook "certified" or stamped or signed by Denis Lebel or anything like this, the only stamps in there were for my PPL XC flight. I submitted my application for my PPL, TC lady returned it within a few days, congratulations PPL the sexy new booklet is in the mail. Now for my CPL, I had an instructor tell me "Your hours are worth nothing, NOTHING if you don't have stamps in there! You'll have to track down all the planes you ever flew in and bring the journey logs to .... .... ...." Anyway, I think this is horseradish, but I do have photos of the journey log of the plane I flew my block time in - if there are any questions asked, will this be sufficient? Should I track down the journey log and get a picture with me, a TC person and a big gold seal? Also, I did a 300NM flight without really thinking of my CPL and I didn't get stamps at waypoints, but I did meet all of the requirements, are these stamps actually required? I have fuel receipts, and I chatted the people up at the airports along the way so they may remember me and vouch for me...

[Colonel Sanders]

I had an instructor tell me "Your hours are worth nothing, NOTHING if you don't have stamps in there!

This is a rather annoying dissonance. There is absolutely no
Canadian Aviation Regulation requiring personal logbook
certification by the CP/CFI/Owner (as appropriate) but TC
directs Authorized Persons to look for it. Go figure.

You probably don't need every flight certified, but an artistic
smattering of stamps and signatures in your personal logbook
adds to the ambience.

I insist that my students always bring their logbook when I
give them dual instruction (for anything). I like to endorse
every single flight in their personal logbook, so no one
can claim that it didn't happen. I put some pretty weird stuff
in people's logbooks, after all.

As an AP, looking at a logbook is like looking at a resume.
You have to make a snap decision, based on what you see,
about the person's integrity. For example, once you see
something bogus in a resume (fake Phd from Harvard) well,
it goes in the circular filing cabinet. Same thing looking at a
logbook. As soon as you spot something not quite right -
say 312 hours logged in one month - then you start digging
and looking at the rest of the entries, too.

The biggest favour you can do yourself, is no funny business
with your logbook. If there's an entry in there, goddamnit,
the aircraft must have flown that day with you in it, doing
what you said you did.

[Shiny Side Up]

I put some pretty weird stuff
in people's logbooks, after all.

Dare we ask what?

This is a rather annoying dissonance. There is absolutely no
Canadian Aviation Regulation requiring personal logbook
certification by the CP/CFI/Owner (as appropriate) but TC
directs Authorized Persons to look for it. Go figure.

Indeed. I've had many a "discussion" with the licensing people over this stuff. They've been remarkably inconsistent.