Equipment Bid

[YWGGuy]

Hello everyone,

I am in the Sept GS course and am curious to know what impact the Aug Equipment bid will have on people in my course. How long does it take for the bid awards to be official? Will that end up opening spots around the company (say YUL or YVR spots) or does it take more time to see the opening in spots to be filled my new hires? I know it's all speculation and more on what other people are bidding into/away from but it would be nice to know historically what happens after bids!

Thanks!

YWGGuy

[SeaBat]

Historically what happens is that many move off the EMB F/O seat to the A320 or wide-body RP spots, or stay on the EMB but move location. Therefore, there are always many EMJ F/O seats available in YYZ, and hence the new course gets slotted into these seats. However, I think it's important to note that this is "historically" what happens, because with the new contract and the changes in bidding rules, the bottom 1/2 of the pilots here are scratching their heads wondering how the next few bids will go.

So, I think that your course might get the standard allotment of EMJ seats with a few RP spots thrown in. But, as people get 'stuck' in a seat due to bidding restrictions, next year's new-hire courses could see some more senior seats become available.

[vic777]

am curious to know what impact the Aug Equipment bid will have on people in my course.

The results of the August Bid will determine which slots are needed to be filled by new hires. For example there might not be any openings at EA32 F/O but if all those current A320 F/O's bid off the position, and no one bid onto A320 F/O, then there would be openings which would be filled by new hires i.e they would run a A320 F/O course for new hires. So the new hire requirements are determined by what is needed after the August bid. Typically everyone moves upward and new hires are offered the most Junior positions.

[cj555]

Typically everyone moves upward and new hires are offered the most Junior positions.

What is the ranking of the most Junior to senior positions and bases?

I.E. for all the new hires, what is the most likely equipment and base they will be assigned? What is the general order of equipment/bases that are bid on from most Junior to Senior?

I guess what I am wondering is what would a typical career progression look like at AC from your first assigned equipment/base to your ability to bid as a senior pilot? Just a general overview would really help.

[Ah_yeah]

You can bet the landscape will change. The emj used to be the ugly sister in the bids but now anyone turning down a flying seat should get another psych eval
It's good insurance plus the RP will now be the 4th class citizen in pay beyond the 4th year.
Much will depend on the bail-out rate of guys trying to exit before pension changes arrive. I heard status-quo bid recently.

[Dockjock]

CA B777
CA A330
CA B787
CA B767
-
CA A320
CA EMJ
CA B767 LCC
CA A319 LCC
-
FO B777
FO A330
FO B787
FO B767
-
FO A320
FO EMJ
FO B767 LCC
FO A319 LCC
-
RP B777
RP A330
RP B787
RP B767

Those are the groups.
-You have the ability to move UP into each group once in your career, those are called restricted course rights
-You do not have the ability to move within a group unless,
-you have an unrestricted course right, of which you get one when you are hired, one after 15 years, and one after 25 years.

Bear in mind that the long term fleet plan has us losing the EMJ's and A330's, and the A320's will eventually be replaced. If you lose your position due to fleet reductions, your move doesn't cost you a bidding right.

To be quite honest it looks restrictive and does force pilots to plan their careers more thoughtfully however I am skeptical as to the amount of training this will actually save with the fleet changes planned over the next 10 years. Gonna be lots and lots and lots of "free" bids due to fleet reductions/substitutions.

[yycflyguy]

To be quite honest it looks restrictive and does force pilots to plan their careers more thoughtfully however I am skeptical as to the amount of training this will actually save with the fleet changes planned over the next 10 years. Gonna be lots and lots and lots of "free" bids due to fleet reductions/substitutions.

I agree.... assuming the corporation will even exist in its present form in 10 years.

If it comes down to it, if there is a position open that nobody can bid due to the restrictions the company will just lift the restriction to fill the need. It is a one way street.

[cj555]

CA B777
CA A330
CA B787
CA B767
-
CA A320
CA EMJ
CA B767 LCC
CA A319 LCC
-
FO B777
FO A330
FO B787
FO B767
-
FO A320
FO EMJ
FO B767 LCC
FO A319 LCC
-
RP B777
RP A330
RP B787
RP B767

Those are the groups.
-You have the ability to move UP into each group once in your career, those are called restricted course rights
-You do not have the ability to move within a group unless,
-you have an unrestricted course right, of which you get one when you are hired, one after 15 years, and one after 25 years.

So that means that the most junior positions are Relief Pilot on the B777,330,787,767? Then next on the list is First Officer on A320, EMJ, B767, A319 etc?

Hypothetical situation: A new hire is assigned the most junior position: RP on the B777, but his/her goal is to be an FO or CA on the A320 (for example), what are the chances her/she will be stuck as an RP on the B777 for many years with no chance to move up? Will he/she have to wait 15 years to get an "unrestricted course right" before being able to move up to the next "group?" Can you explain a little bit more how the unrestricted course rights factor in? I guess it also depends on retirements and attrition as the top which determines your ability to bid from RP to FO?

I am just trying to understand how a career progression works at AC. Are there many pilots stuck flying a certain type of aircraft (and in a certain position ie RP, FO) who are trying to make it to a certain type but are unable to? How long would you typically expect to be in the position you are first assigned to when hired (months, years, decades)?

[TheStig]

YWGGuy

The bid results should be out by the time your class bids. Simulator availability determines which positions are ultimately available, but that wouldn't prohibit you from being able to bid for any YVR or YUL vacancies. Unfortunately at this point no one would be able to provide you with any assurances at this point. The big variable on this bid is how many older pilots are going to elect to retire before Jan 1, 2014.

cj555, Career progression at AC is limited by the airlines growth and retirements.

There are no restrictions from moving UP into any of the groups posted above. It's a complicated system, but each pilot is given a restricted course right to bid up from one group to the next.

The one unrestricted course right can be used to bid within each of the groups or down to a lower group. As mentioned pilots will accrue an unrestricted course right in 15 years and in 25 years.

[YWGGuy]

Hi thanks for the input guys.

My understanding is you get 5 restricted course rights. I thought if you start with an EMB FO position you could use your RP restricted course right to bid into an RP position.

Also if I am able to obtain a YYZ 767 RP position will I need to use a course right to get a YVR 767 RP position when one ones?

Thanks again!

[DBC]

EMB -> RP would be a downbid, using your only "unrestricted" until you got a new one after 15 years. Their goal is an upward flow only, with RP positions being the lowest position in the company.

I am 99.99% sure that base changes on the same equipment are not restricted in the same way, and you would be able to move around with some restrictions.

[YWGGuy]

Thanks for the clarification, obviously ill need to re read some of it - I missed that part. I'd personally have probably bid for an RP position after a year or two if I had become an EMB FO but now realizing it would take my unrestricted bid that may change things. Here is hoping there are some RP positions available at the end of this bid!

[watermeth]

so if I understand correctly once you're hired as an EMJ F/O right now, you have to wait for fleet reduction to move up from a group to another without using your course right.
then after that if you wanna fine tune your lifestyle you have to wait 15 years for, let say, bid FO767 provided it gives you the possibility to remain employed at mainline ?

Am I correct ?

[aV1aTOr]

Hi thanks for the input guys.

My understanding is you get 5 restricted course rights. I thought if you start with an EMB FO position you could use your RP restricted course right to bid into an RP position.

Also if I am able to obtain a YYZ 767 RP position will I need to use a course right to get a YVR 767 RP position when one ones?

Thanks again!

I submitted the same question and was told that any position move that does not require training, like yyz 767 to yvr 767, does not use a course right.

[altiplano]

stuck as an RP on the B777 for many years with no chance to move up?

There is no better spot to be "stuck" - I would take 777RP over being on an EMB or low seniority... hell, any spot on the 320 anyday!

Flying is great and all, but I'd prefer a civilized life, especially if I'm going to be "stuck"...

[cj555]

stuck as an RP on the B777 for many years with no chance to move up?

There is no better spot to be "stuck" - I would take 777RP over being on an EMB or low seniority... hell, any spot on the 320 anyday!

Flying is great and all, but I'd prefer a civilized life, especially if I'm going to be "stuck"...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't an RP position mean you're only assigned to sit on the flight deck and monitor the systems during high level cruise. Any taxing, take-offs, landings and approaches are all done by the CA and FO on the flight. Is this correct? If this is the case, personally I would much rather be an FO on the EMJ. For me being in control during departures and arrivals would keep the job interesting.

What are the differences in lifestyle you refer to between RP and FO?

Another question along these lines: Once hired at AC, do you have a choice to bid RP or FO on the EMJ (most junior positions)? Or are you just assigned? If so, how long can you expect (on average) to be in your first position after hiring? As far as career progression, which would be a better starting point RP or FO?

[TheStig]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't an RP position mean you're only assigned to sit on the flight deck and monitor the systems during high level cruise. Any taxing, take-offs, landings and approaches are all done by the CA and FO on the flight. Is this correct? If this is the case, personally I would much rather be an FO on the EMJ. For me being in control during departures and arrivals would keep the job interesting.

That mindset usually disappears by the time pilots bid for their type, if not, usually by the time they do their EMJ line check.

Another question along these lines: Once hired at AC, do you have a choice to bid RP or FO on the EMJ (most junior positions)? Or are you just assigned? If so, how long can you expect (on average) to be in your first position after hiring? As far as career progression, which would be a better starting point RP or FO?

New hire classes are offered the positions left vacant from the previous equipment bid. Names are drawn out of a hat for first choice. How quickly you progress up the pay scale from there, as already mentioned, depends on retirements and growth of the company.

Once hired a pilot is assigned to the seniority list, there is no better starting position. What positions a pilot holds doesn't govern their advancement within the airline, just their seniority number.

[vic777]

That mindset usually disappears by the time pilots bid for their type, if not, usually by the time they do their EMJ line check.

That mindset (preference), for those who have it, never disappears.

[pelmet]

.

[vic777]

Hmmm, I would want to try a new type every two years.

In the "old days" ... you could spend Five years out of Thirty, "In Training".