College of Pilots?

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

Post Reply
dazednconfused
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:50 am

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by dazednconfused »

Duster wrote:We may gain some influence over our regulatory oversite, over setting licensing standards.
I admire you wanting to make things better for the industry, it's not as simple as creating a college to get better wages and working conditions and respect from the public. Lots of non aviation industries are under pressure as well. When you see Air Canada pilots on strike, it doesn't make the public have much sympathy when the rest of us are worried about our job security and see our benefits slowly disappear year after year. New grads are having a hell of a time finding work that pays the bills. Most dont for a few years. What are you going to do when there are five people, with credentials, who would love to have your job for less pay and benefits because it beats working in retail? I dont think any of the operators are having a hard time finding qualified people - a college cant force anything upon them when other pilots will gladly take the job, college member or not, unless you mandate airlines to hire college members only.

And gaining influence over setting licensing standards? It'd be nice to see, but again, airlines have their own standards anyway and these will superscede whatever the college wants. Just because I get a CPL doesn't mean i get a job. I had a conversation with the guy selling me mens shoes the other day. He's an architect. No jobs. He belongs to a college/association. Too many people looking for the same and dwindling amount of architect jobs, which means not everyone gets one, and those who do, are settling for less and less money and working conditions.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Doc
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 9241
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:28 am

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote: Wake up pilots! Join and make this thing work for us.
Yup. We should all run off and sign up....because Gilles did.

What did joining do for you, Gilles? Other than make you feel all warm and cozy? You getting better working conditions? You getting more money? Has you boss stopped pushing you into bad weather? No more overloads? No more extended duty days? Get your bond money back?
I hear what Tom is saying....but it's so far all sizzle. No steak. Sorry, I'm a carnivore. When I see specific benefits for ME (by ME, I mean US as a whole) I'll look into it. I live by the motto....."Never do anything stupid, fast.."
---------- ADS -----------
  

Duster
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 85
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:48 pm

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Duster »

And how Doc, do you propose the College come up with "something to offer" you if no one joins. The board of the College would have no mandate to offer anything if not supported by the majority of Canadian pilots. I respectfully suggest that by electing to not join that you are in fact going with the flow and following the herd. What the College NEEDS are independent, innovative thinkers willing to work with independent thinkers to come up with "something to offer". Or we can just continue to do what we've doing for the last 40 years or so - bitch and moan and live with the status quo.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Duster
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 85
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:48 pm

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Duster »

Further Doc, I challenge you to step outside your comfort zone. You are obviously passionate about aviation. Give Tom Machum or Dave Coles or Bob Saunders a call. Discuss the College with them. Ask what the College is about. Ask if there is anything or anywhere where your experience and knowledge could be of value. Ask if there is any way you could help. The only way this will work is if WE decide to make it happen. If after all that you still decide the College is useless or a terrible idea (or a sinister organization bent on world domination) then i will respect and defend your opinion 100%

Cheers
---------- ADS -----------
  

Johnny#5
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 558
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 6:04 pm

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Johnny#5 »

Nope, its definitely better to not join and instead just complain incessantly about all things aviation on this forum.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Doc
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 9241
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:28 am

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc »

Duster wrote:And how Doc, do you propose the College come up with "something to offer" you if no one joins. The board of the College would have no mandate to offer anything if not supported by the majority of Canadian pilots. I respectfully suggest that by electing to not join that you are in fact going with the flow and following the herd. What the College NEEDS are independent, innovative thinkers willing to work with independent thinkers to come up with "something to offer". Or we can just continue to do what we've doing for the last 40 years or so - bitch and moan and live with the status quo.
Easy answer to a difficult question would be to publish "intentions" to become involved in subjects like working conditions? Unless certain "aims" are published, which I think will improve the average pilot's situation, I won't be joining. "To promote professionalism" is just too vague. You want pilots to act "professional" you have to have the ability to stand behind them when they do. When they flatly refuse to break the CARS (by being professional) and the "college" has no "intention" of backing them up, I'm no buying into it. It's a toothless kitten.
BTW, I don't "bitch and moan".....unless there's no wind when I want to sail. Or it's raining and I can't ride my bikes.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Gilles Hudicourt
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2176
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:51 am
Location: YUL

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Doc wrote:
Gilles Hudicourt wrote: Wake up pilots! Join and make this thing work for us.
Yup. We should all run off and sign up....because Gilles did.

What did joining do for you, Gilles? Other than make you feel all warm and cozy? You getting better working conditions? You getting more money? Has you boss stopped pushing you into bad weather? No more overloads? No more extended duty days? Get your bond money back?
I hear what Tom is saying....but it's so far all sizzle. No steak. Sorry, I'm a carnivore. When I see specific benefits for ME (by ME, I mean US as a whole) I'll look into it. I live by the motto....."Never do anything stupid, fast.."
I was around when ALPA was introduced at Air Transat in 1999. Our working conditions and our salaries improved tenfold since. But, like today, there were guys like Doc who refused to sign their cards and who were preaching for pilots not to sign, claiming it was a lot of money for nothing and that it would lead us to the brink. Every company has its "Docs". Yet, once the majority had signed, and we joinded ALPA, our new collective agreement improved work conditions for all the AT pilots, even for the "Docs" who had refused to sign. They best part was some years later, when those same "Docs" ran into trouble and came to the MEC office begging for help......which they obtained......
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Doc
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 9241
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:28 am

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc »

Duster wrote:Further Doc, I challenge you to step outside your comfort zone. You are obviously passionate about aviation. Give Tom Machum or Dave Coles or Bob Saunders a call. Discuss the College with them. Ask what the College is about. Ask if there is anything or anywhere where your experience and knowledge could be of value. Ask if there is any way you could help. The only way this will work is if WE decide to make it happen. If after all that you still decide the College is useless or a terrible idea (or a sinister organization bent on world domination) then i will respect and defend your opinion 100%

Cheers
Interesting concept. Not like I don't have time on my hands. I'd be really interested in becoming involved in world domination!

PM me
---------- ADS -----------
  

dazednconfused
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:50 am

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by dazednconfused »

Duster wrote:And how Doc, do you propose the College come up with "something to offer" you if no one joins. The board of the College would have no mandate to offer anything if not supported by the majority of Canadian pilots. I respectfully suggest that by electing to not join that you are in fact going with the flow and following the herd. What the College NEEDS are independent, innovative thinkers willing to work with independent thinkers to come up with "something to offer". Or we can just continue to do what we've doing for the last 40 years or so - bitch and moan and live with the status quo.

Air Canada has a very strong pilots association. And where is it getting them? But really, if you dont like your employer, and think you deserve better, then it's time to take charge of your own life. When AC has a stack of resumes for a $40k/year starting wage, how do the pilots propose to make things better? How are things going for the UAW lately? They were stubborn, and didn't like the $26/hr offer for floor supervisors, and ~$32/hr for skilled labour from the CAT locomotive plant, so the plant shutdown and moved to the US. Eight months later, most are still out of work.

I feel like the fundamental problem of way too many applicants for way too few jobs is never addressed by college supporters. There's a lot of dreaming going on, about how it'd be nice to go back to higher wages and better working conditions, but guess what, every industry in Canada is facing challenges. You wont get a ton of public sympathy. Nor is there any reason for companies to increase wages, benefits and working conditions. One clear way to send a message to the 'industry' is if people stop applying for work at certain companies. But i dont think it will happen.

Also, I have a few friends who fly charter, corporate and for airlines, and they all like their jobs. I dont hear them complaining. If anything, they love their work and wouldn't trade it for the world.
---------- ADS -----------
  

dazednconfused
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:50 am

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by dazednconfused »

Johnny#5 wrote:Nope, its definitely better to not join and instead just complain incessantly about all things aviation on this forum.

Then, the clearest way to send a message to employers who dont treat you properly is to quit and find a new career/company that makes you happier. If everyone did this, the message would be heard and conditions would improve.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Doc
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 9241
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:28 am

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
Doc wrote:
Gilles Hudicourt wrote: Wake up pilots! Join and make this thing work for us.
Yup. We should all run off and sign up....because Gilles did.

What did joining do for you, Gilles? Other than make you feel all warm and cozy? You getting better working conditions? You getting more money? Has you boss stopped pushing you into bad weather? No more overloads? No more extended duty days? Get your bond money back?
I hear what Tom is saying....but it's so far all sizzle. No steak. Sorry, I'm a carnivore. When I see specific benefits for ME (by ME, I mean US as a whole) I'll look into it. I live by the motto....."Never do anything stupid, fast.."
I was around when ALPA was introduced at Air Transat in 1999. Our working conditions and our salaries inproved tenfold since. But, like today, there were guys like Doc who refused to sign their cards and who were preaching for pilots not to sign, claiming it was a lot of money for nothing and that it would lead us to the brink. Every company has its "Docs". Yet, once the majority had signed, and we joinded ALPA, our new collective agreement improved work conditions for all the AT pilots, even for the "Docs" who had refused to sign. They best part was some years later, when those same "Docs" ran into trouble and came to the MEC office begging for help......which they obtained......
Gilles, you quoted me. Did you actually READ what you quoted??? I'm ranting FOR better working conditions, and wages. Read what you quote. Better working conditions. Better wages. Your example of Air Transat and ALPA is out in left field. ALPA is a union. The "college" is NOT a union. If you had any "Docs" back then, you'd probably been with ALPA sooner. I'm FOR the rank and file pilots!! READ my posts before you jump on me for them. I have your 6....because you don't.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Gilles Hudicourt
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2176
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:51 am
Location: YUL

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Doc wrote: What did joining do for you, Gilles? Other than make you feel all warm and cozy? You getting better working conditions? You getting more money? Has you boss stopped pushing you into bad weather? No more overloads? No more extended duty days? Get your bond money back?
I hear what Tom is saying....but it's so far all sizzle. No steak. Sorry, I'm a carnivore. When I see specific benefits for ME (by ME, I mean US as a whole) I'll look into it. I live by the motto....."Never do anything stupid, fast.."
Well when I signed the card for joining ALPA I didn't ask those who were behind the Union to get me better working conditions, more money, safer flying, shorter duty days before I joined the Union. I took a leap of faith that the Union was going to provide all this after I joined and after they were given the chance to negociate an agreement with the company, because this is what Unions normally do. And I actually pitched in and did some work for them over the years.

Now what do professional colleges normally do Doc? Just go look on any of the Websites of the dozens of Canadian Professional Associations I quoted earlier Doc, and you will see what they normally do. But before any of them began to achieve what it is they do, they were founded, and they recruited members. Only when you represent the majority of those in the field can you begin such work........
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dazednconfused
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:50 am

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by dazednconfused »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote: Now what do professional colleges normally do Doc? Just go look on any of the Websites of the dozens of Canadian Professional Associations I quoted earlier Doc, and you will see what they normally do.
Association of Administrative Assistants (AAA)
"The Association is proactive in encouraging its members to further their education and enhance their career opportunities by continuously upgrading their skills and professionalism."

And no matter what, they wont get paid what dentists, doctors, lawyers and most pilots make. And if i was to take a guess, admin assistants probably havent made great strides in income and benefit gains over the past ten years. I've watched corporations continually cut health benefits slowly each year - for all employees. Furthermore, get all the skills you want, an admin assistant gets limited pay and benefits because there's a thousand others who can do the work especially since there is no legal requirement on what it takes to be an admin assistant. This is the exact problem in aviation because all you need is the CPL - not ten years of schooling (if you can even get in). Just because you are part of the Association of Administrative Assistants (AAA), you are not in the same league as someone in the College of Dental Surgeons and will never have the same bargaining power when it comes to wages and benefits, mostly because doctors, lawyers, engineers, dentists can bill out enormous rates for their work so of course they get paid more and can therefore demand more. There is more money to simply go around. Teachers have been part of an association forever, and they still struggle to get improved working conditions. What you need to do is limit the supply of pilots via limiting the amount of training spots if you want bargaining power as a group - and thats just the start. Then second, somehow get a cash infusion to the airline you work for. An airline without excess profits doesn't have money to pay more, simple as that. This isnt exactly an industry that is known for large profits year after year. It's very sensitive to the economy.

Airlines will continue to seek out labour at a competitive rate - why? because they can. Just because you belong to the college, will you get paid more verus the guy who is not a member?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Prairie Chicken
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 727
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:12 pm
Location: Gone sailing...

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Prairie Chicken »

I recently read a book about all that is wrong, and why, with the USA. The first two-thirds of the book was very detailed, contained lots of stats & graphs, and provided plenty of explanation (in the author's opinion) of how they got into the mess they're in today. The last third of the book was what the author believes the solutions are. No graphs, stats or explicit details in the solutions part. It strikes me it is very difficult to forecast the means or precise details of how to go forward with a vision, and that is the issue we're debating here.

I suspect the College have a vision of better things, but can't yet fully delineate the path to get there. I further suspect that path will change with trial, error, and changes in participants. I don't know if they'll be successful or not, but I give them credit for trying.

I know for damn sure that bitching here on the forum won't accomplish a thing.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Duster
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 85
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:48 pm

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Duster »

Prairie Chicken you suspect correctly. The vision and methodology of the College can not be fully defined (or refined) until membership reaches a level that indicates representation of a sizable portion of Canadian pro pilots. To do otherwise would make the College guilty of what has already been intimated on this forum and elsewhere - dictating the ideas and desires of a few upon the many. What IS need are more members, and more particularly members willing to share their expertise,ideas, and creativity in finding potential solutions. This process MUST remain democratic and is still in very early stages.
---------- ADS -----------
  

WJ700
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 874
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:48 am
Location: in front of my computer.

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by WJ700 »

Duster wrote:I joined the College of Pilots a few days ago. They asked for my licence # (to determine if in fact I am a Comm or ATPL and elegable to join), my address, and my credit card (just like when I order something from Amazon). Didn't seem too sinister to me.

Why did I join - well been in this business for 31 years (instructing, charter, air ambulance, Ag, government, airline) and have watched the slide in wages,working conditions, public opinion of pilots, erosion of command authority, a government that does not respect existing labour agreements, the use of automation to replace skill and judgement, the farce that is airport security, the willingness of many of our brethren to accept rules and procedures over common sense and judgement, foreign pilots working unhindered in our country, the implementation of SMS etc,etc,etc...

And I asked myself - where has OUR voice been through all this? We bitch at each other in the flight deck about how things are going to hell, we bitch on the various forums, we eat our own young scrabbling for the next job, and we wait for things to get better. I fully believe that if we can get the majority of Canadian pilots on board we just might have a unified voice, and actually gain a measure of the respect we deserve from our government and citizens. We may gain some influence over our regulatory oversite, over setting licensing standards. We will have the opportunity to tell the public our side of an issue. We may actually start to behave like a profession.

I have met and worked with a number of the existing board of the College. There is a perception among some that these are a bunch of fat cat airline pilots with an elitist attitude and a hunger for power. Nothing could be further than the truth - these folks have given up a great deal of time, energy, and finances to try and get this going, and are fully prepard to abrogate their positions when the board elections are implemented in the next year. They are passionate about the positive side of our profession - which I guess makes them an easy target for the whiners who stand back, do nothing, and critique those who TRY.

I sincerely hope that most of use can see past our own small world of self-interest, and join in creating a vision of all pilots, for pilots, so that the next generation of stars has an active voice in their profession.

+1 Duster... my $50 is in. Cheap investment for a potentially large return.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Johnny#5
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 558
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 6:04 pm

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Johnny#5 »

You only had to pay $50?
---------- ADS -----------
  

YWGGuy
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:59 pm

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by YWGGuy »

Some people will pay either $50 or $60 depending on what airline company they work for. ACPA and other pilot groups donated money to the College and the College is extending a $10 discount to those who are part of the unions or associations that have contributed already.
---------- ADS -----------
  

AEROBAT
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 554
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:27 am

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by AEROBAT »

+TSRAGR wrote:These are taken from a policy statement of the College.

Read them carefully and see if you feel comfortable with them.


1.0 Purpose of the College of Professional Pilots of Canada (the “College”) Privacy Policy
The College is a federally registered, non‐share corporation with a volunteer board of directors
and professional staff whose purpose is to regulate professional pilots in Canada.
The College
supports and advocates on behalf of its members and industry by developing and implementing
strategic plans, and delivering a range of information services to its members, partners and
industry.

1.2 Definitions
"Personal information" means any information about an identifiable individual. It includes,
without limitation; information relating to identity, nationality, age, gender, address, telephone
number, e‐mail address, Social Insurance Number, date of birth, marital status, education,
employment health history, assets, liabilities, payment records, credit records, loan records,
income and information relating to financial transactions as well as certain personal opinions or
views of an Individual.


2.0 Purposes of Collecting Personal Information
Personal information is collected in order to assess the eligibility of the individual completing an
application for membership in the College, as well as to report to Transport Canada.
The
individual is the main source of information but the College will also ask to obtain information
directly from a third source where the individual does not have the required information.



These three paragraphs say that:
1) The College exists to regulate pilots.
2) Personal information includes your opinions, views, financial history, social insurance number etc.
3) The purpose of collecting personal information is to assess your worthiness for membership and to report information to Transport
Canada.

The above does seem to be pretty weird information needed to join a pilots association. You would think a pilots licence number would be all that is required. I thought that perhaps there was some merit in a College but I really cannot fathom where the other information could be required. This raises a BIG red flag for me.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Duster
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 85
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:48 pm

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Duster »

Your pilot's license number and standard VISA info (as in any other online purchase) are all that is required. You may include your age (the college is pursuing group insurance for its members, and the age demographic of its members is needed to get rate quotes), and your address if you wish. If you read the policy carefully you will note that most of it is standard privacy legelese and that you are not required to provide any personal info beyond what I listed above. There is nothing sinister going on here.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Prairie Chicken
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 727
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:12 pm
Location: Gone sailing...

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Prairie Chicken »

Aerobat, check out Tom M's response on the previous page. I think that excerpt got the attention of a lot of us.
---------- ADS -----------
  

dazednconfused
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:50 am

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by dazednconfused »

WJ700 wrote: +1 Duster... my $50 is in. Cheap investment for a potentially large return.
And this would be?
---------- ADS -----------
  

mbav8r
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2141
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Manitoba

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by mbav8r »

I joined, not because I'm a sheep or a lemming, but quite simply I believe this industry has hit an all time low and we have nothing to lose except the equivalent of a night out to the movies, for the potential of redirecting the momentum in our favor.
Fortunately, when the benefits are realized, even the people who tried to persuade others not to join and were completely over the top with their arguments will still benefit from it.
I CAN'T believe I joined 4 days ago and there are still companies that charge bonds, WTF over.
Doc wrote,
hear what Tom is saying....but it's so far all sizzle. No steak. Sorry, I'm a carnivore. When I see specific benefits for ME (by ME, I mean US as a whole) I'll look into it. I live by the motto....."Never do anything stupid, fast.."
Don't worry Doc, let everyone else do the legwork, then you can come in a reap the benefits, it's ok. I'll tell you what, one thing is absolutely certain, not joining will guarantee status quo or further degradation, because it is not getting any better by itself.
But please, please refrain from trying to sway people to your side of the issue, because you've been on here for years complaining about bonds, guess what there are still bonds, maybe it's time to try something new.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Doc
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 9241
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:28 am

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc »

mbav8r wrote:you've been on here for years complaining about bonds, guess what there are still bonds, maybe it's time to try something new.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by Doc on Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

cncpc
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1426
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am

Re: College of Pilots?

Post by cncpc »

It's becoming unbelievable, really.

This has to be stopped.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”