Working on ratings at age 16

[2cdneh]

My son is finishing up his PPL, but will still only be 16 when he finishes, so he will not actually get his PPL until he turns 17 in June.

He had planned to work on his night, multi, and IFR ratings over the winter, and then apply for them all once he his PPL is issued on his birthday. However, the flight school is now saying that he can't get any credit for the hours spent on the ratings if they are done before he has his PPL. I read through the CARs and cannot find anything that says that. I called Ottawa, they agreed with me, but referred me to the local TC office to be sure. I'm going to talk to them, but I wanted to get some feedback from anyone who has been in this situation before I do. When you talk to the government, you can get a completely different answer if you talk to a different person, so I'd like to understand the situation and any applicable CARs before I talk to them.

Thanks for any help

PS I hope this is not a duplicate post. I tried to post 30 minutes ago and nothing showed up, so I am trying again.

[trey kule]

I am not at al current on the CARS, but this used to be a problem when we tried to incorporate the night rating into the ppl course.. That was many many years ago, so things have maybe changed.
\
In any event.. Get it in writing from TC.. Otherwise staff turn over, and you could have a problem even if someone says it is so...Writing is forever.

The other issue is that until he gets his ppl he is a student pilot with all the restrictions that apply to that in terms of blasting off to gain experience.



good luck...

[2cdneh]

Thanks for the suggestion about getting it in writing. If I get a positive reply, I'll do exactly that.

Plan A is for him to get enough hours just by working on his ratings, so not having his PPL yet should not be a problem. He can solo as a student. However, Plan B is for him to do a second flight test, and get his Rec Permit, which he can get at 16. That would allow him more freedom to fly, but I'm not sure I want him carrying passengers quite yet. The ground school / exam for the PPL is accepted for the RP, so it's just a flight test to get it.

I hope someone else has better news regarding the training, but it is what it is.

[Shiny Side Up]

He had planned to work on his night, multi, and IFR ratings over the winter, and then apply for them all once he his PPL is issued on his birthday. However, the flight school is now saying that he can't get any credit for the hours spent on the ratings if they are done before he has his PPL.

Well yes and no, depends on what the time is being applied to. Note 421.30 (4)(ii)

(ii) following the issuance of a private pilot licence — aeroplane by Canada or another contracting state, have completed 65 hours of commercial pilot flight training in aeroplanes consisting of a minimum of:

Now the kicker here is that these are requirements towards a CPL, not the individual ratings. Essentially if you did the time towards the ratings, night, VFR OTT, Seaplane you could count that time towards those individual ratings, but not towards the CPL requirements. Essentially you would end up being less efficient in your race to get ahead. To review, on that list of things to be done after the PPL is in hand are as follows:

(A) 35 hours dual instruction flight time, under the direction and supervision of the holder of a Flight Instructor Rating — Aeroplane, including:
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(I) 5 hours night, including a minimum of 2 hours of cross-country flight time;
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(II) 5 hours cross-country, which may include the cross-country experience stated in subclause (I); and
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(III) 20 hours of instrument flight time in addition to the experience stated in subclauses (I) and (II). A maximum 10 hours of the 20 hours may be conducted on an approved aeroplane simulator or synthetic flight training device.
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(B) 30 hours solo flight time including:
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(I) 25 hours solo flight time emphasizing the improvement of general flying skills of the applicant which shall include a cross-country flight to a point of a minimum of 300 nautical mile radius from the point of departure and shall include a minimum of 3 landings at points other than that of departure; and
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(II) 5 hours solo flight time by night during which a minimum of 10 takeoffs, circuits and landings were completed.
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

Note that some things just wouldn't be able to be done before the holding of the PPL anyways like the five hours of solo night time, but would be silly to have to redo again many of the dual requirements again after he has the PPL to satisfy the CPL requirements. Not that having more time than less when he gets his CPL signed off would be a bad thing, and I would say go for it if you're not interested in minimising his flight training costs at all, just be aware that getting some stuff done early might mean having to redo it later - and I'm keenly aware of how people hate having to pay for extra dual time.

tl;dr

You can get time that credits towards the individual ratings, but then not credit that time against the specific CPL requirements above.

[2cdneh]

Thanks, that's exactly what I needed to know. It explains why the flight school didn't match what I saw in the CARs - I did not look at the CPL portion.

I don't have an issue with paying for some extra hours. To get the IFR rating out of way, including the written test, will be worth a few extra hours. I think there is also some requirement to fly a certain number of IFR hours after you get your rating, which he will get by dping the CPL.

Here's the tentative plan: (Neither my son or I know much about aviation, so any feedback is appreciated)

Finish the PPL in Oct (while it is still dayight after school)
Was planniing to do the training night rating, but not if he cannot fly alone without the PPL, as per your note)
Train for multi-rating (only because it seems that if you get your IFR single, you would have to do it again for multi)
Train for IFR multi rating
Turn 17, get the PPL, apply for the ratings, finish grade 11 (all in June 2013)
Go out to BC and do 50 hours on floats in a bush pilot course http://www.air-hart.com/training/
Start CPL and grade 12 at the same time (50 hours on floats, including 25 hours solo, should all count)
Get a Challenger XL-65 with a Rotax 582, wheels, skis and floats for Christmas, licensed as amateur built, (it's a lot more GA-like than the earlier models)
Take lessons to get the hang of the XL-65
Build a 100-200 hours on the XL-65, especially float time (even count some towards the CPL, since it is licensed as amateur-built)
Finish the CPL
Turn 18, get the CPL, graduate high school
Get a crappy dock job in the North
Take the XL-65 out west/north, fly 3x a week while also working crappy dock job
Get a job actually flying

He wants to be a pilot, so instead of waiting until after high school, he's just doing it all now. If it gets him working year or two sooner, then any extra money spent will be more than made up, since the extra year will be at the end of his career, when he should be making reasonable money, not at the beginning. The reason for the Challenger is the relatively affordable price, the $20/hr operating cost, the amphib floats, and keeping in the air after he starts working. It will be professionally built.

This might be a great plan, or we might be crazy. Advice is always appreciated, if not always followed.

[Shiny Side Up]

I would only warn again that this is sort of an inefficient way to go about things costs wise, and possibly not a great idea in terms of preparing for and doing tests wise either, I would look into a specific plan and possibly stretching stuff out a little bit, if only because the plan would look to cram a lot of flight tests into a reasonably short time if one really wants to take advantage of the training rightly. Remember that to be admitted to the written and flight tests for ratings like the IFR and the Multi, he will have to have PPL license in hand. So if for example you have a year now that you're going to hammer on these, you don't want to end up with a large gap between say completing a bunch of multi training and doing a multi test.

I don't mean to say as well, but this sounds like you have this planned out very well. Please make sure you don't burn the kid out. Last time I had a kid, with parents and a similar plan, The flight test examiner and I were sitting here wondering where the next little aviation prodigy was that I had been devoting the last six months to, to which I'd later found out that Mom and Dad didn't know either, but called home about two months later from a beach in the Shushwap with a group of their friends. From what I gathered there was a lot of bootlegged booze partaken of. Needless to say, it somewhat sidetracked Dad's plans for Son's aviation career. Remember they're teen-agers and their priorities are going to make some shifts in the near future, just don't let it break your heart too badly.

[ahramin]

Good advice about not burning the kid out Shiny, but I think it's pretty clear that cost efficiency is not the object here .

2cdneh, it looks like a good plan except for working the dock. While your son is probably going to need a few menial jobs to gain some maturity, I would keep in mind that the goal is a flying job and keep that goal in mind. Getting a dock/dispatch/fuel job in order to get a flying job should never be the goal. Getting a flying job should be the goal from the second the CPL is in hand.

Oh, and as far as the instrument rating goes there is no problem with doing the single IFR first and then the multi-IFR later. You will need to do the flight test twice but that's it. I had my single IFR a couple years before I touched a multi engine plane, and it just made the multi-IFR that much easier. Once I had my multi-engine rating I went and did the multi-IFR flight test with no IFR training in the multi-engine plane. Basically, do whatever works with your schedule at the time.

[2cdneh]

We did not know that he needed the PPL before the tests. We thought that he could complete the tests, then apply for the license. For the PPL, that's exactly what he is doing, taking the tests at 16 and waiting for 17 to actually get the license.

As for the plan, while I'm giving some feedback, he's the one pushing, not me. I went to university when I was 12. Everyone always assumed that I must have terrible slave-driver parents - the truth was I was dragging them along because I was bored to death in school and wanted something that would challenge me. I don't push him, but I don't hold him back either. He's been riding a street motorcycle since he was 14 (New Brunswick defines a scooter quite loosely http://motorcycle-specs.com/motorcycle_ ... &year=2003) with no tickets or issues. He rode Halifax to Vancouver this summer on a 650 raising money for Doctors Without Borders, no problems - even set a world record for the youngest person to ever do that. He's got his advanced scuba certification, and is a good and safe diver. Yes, he's a teenager, and sleeps till noon, and can spend an entire weekend playing World of Warcraft. He doesn't want to go to university, he loves to fly, and wants to fly as much as he can as soon as he can. He's responsible, careful, but not timid. He'll make a good pilot, and it's what he wants to do. Two years for a CPL with ratings doesn' seem overly aggressive. He doesn't see the flying as anything but a joy, he would fly every day if he could, although the same is not true of the ground school.

If he doesn't have to do the IFR written over again for the multi, then I will suggest to him to work on the IFR in a single engine, build some hours, and take the IFR exam right after his birthday, maybe push some of the stuff until summer 2013, when he has more time.

Everybody has been telling him that he'll have to work the docks before he gets a flying job. He does not want to instruct, so the bush route seems like it would make sense. As a 200 or 300 hour pilot, especially at 18 (or even 19) how do you go about finding a flying job?

[gustind]

As a note, I will agree with everything Shiney Side up said plus add some.

You can do the PPL Flight Test and written exam when he is 16 and they will both count towards the Rec permit as per the CARS. You can do all the rating training as said but none can count towards the CPL. Keep in mind you only need an extra 65 hours in your PTR to for CPL training. As long as it all adds up in the end with min 65 in the PTR and 200 in the logbook, you are fine.

Best of luck,

[2cdneh]

You can do the PPL Flight Test and written exam when he is 16 and they will both count towards the Rec permit as per the CARS.

Does that mean he just apply for his rec permit after he passes the PPL tests, without any additional testing?

Remember that to be admitted to the written and flight tests for ratings like the IFR and the Multi, he will have to have PPL license in hand.

I didn't see that in the CARs. It read like you just needed to have taken the test in the previous 12 months. Can someone point me to the applicable section? If he is unable to actually complete the testing as he goes, I will try to convince him to limit his ratings work until after he turns 17. I had really thought he could finish all the testing for the IFR before he turned 17. Trying to cram all the tests into a short period would be a bad idea.

Thanks everyone for the advice. He's only been flying for 4 months, but seems quite smitten by it. He's trying to get out flying for a living as quickly as he can - both for the flying and to be on his own. If he finishes up with an extra 50 hours and few extra bucks spent, that's not a big deal. Extra time is never a bad thing for a pilot. If he chooses a schedule that negatively impacts his training, then that's a bad idea.

[Shiny Side Up]

Yes, he's a teenager, and sleeps till noon, and can spend an entire weekend playing World of Warcraft. He doesn't want to go to university, he loves to fly, and wants to fly as much as he can as soon as he can. He's responsible, careful, but not timid. He'll make a good pilot, and it's what he wants to do. Two years for a CPL with ratings doesn' seem overly aggressive. He doesn't see the flying as anything but a joy, he would fly every day if he could, although the same is not true of the ground school.

The bit about ground school caught my eye, well because its one of my favorite ranting topics. Out of curiousity, what kind of ground school student is he? No one likes it, but the flying is the fun part. Is he in the books? I hate to say it but a keener would already have been all over this info. How does he pay for flying? You don't mention anything he does that sounds like work. Not to be critical, but I strongly suggest parents not give their child a free ride on this - and you're setting a bad precendent with the notion that how many hours he spends on this doesn't matter. I say this because you don't want there to become a battle when it comes serious book study written time, and suddenly all the fun hours become un-fun and he loses interest. I would strongly suggest you start weening him a bit and see how he reacts to paying his way for flight training.

Secondly you might set yourself up for trouble with the flight school if it becomes known that you're willing to spend whatever piling the hours on the boy. If I was an eviller instructor, believe it or not they're out there (eviller instructors that is), one could find a way to substantially profit from your lack of efficiency.

I didn't see that in the CARs. It read like you just needed to have taken the test in the previous 12 months.

Actually I think I stand corrected, by myself. Reviewing Standard 428 you only need to have a SPP to be admitted to the flight test for those, though there are other requirements in terms of time done. Same to be admitted to written exams.

[2cdneh]

Let me get my rant in. The idea that only way for a kid to learn the value of money is by working is ridiculous. Working in high school usually does more harm than good, as the work can interfere with the scholastics, especially for tests and exams. He makes the honour roll, he does his homework every day, he passes in every assignment on time. He mows the lawn, he does chores. He’s flying twice a week. He’s doing the ground school. I’m sure it will just further your "poor little rich kid" viewpoint, but he’s doing the ground school online, combined with a private tutor as required. Typically, one-on-instruction yields an average score two standard deviations above conventional class room instruction, but that’s not the only reason he's doing that way. It's so that he can put his school work first, and take a break when he needs to focus on school. He didn't fly during final exams. Set back the flying a bit, probably cost me some money for extra flight time in the long run, but he did better on his exams.
I'm not going to make him take some crappy part-time job where he'll make minimum wage, just to prove a point. And what is the point exactly? That I could easily pay for the flying, but I'm going to make you work for a tenth of what I make as part of some perverse plan to teach you the value of money. I have a much better plan. When he’s got 10 years under his belt, and is making some reasonable money, and I am retiring, he's going to pay back a significant amount of total cost. But he'll pay it back on pilot’s wages, not McDonalds', and he still has skin in the game. As for the plane, once he’s flying for a living, we’ll either sell it or he'll pay half the cost if he decides wants to keep it.

I'm not wasting money on inefficient training. He’s got two years of school left. He wants to be a pilot. If he can master more skills while he is still in high school, that is a good use of that time, and he CHOOSES to do that. Given that scholastics are not his strong point, the IFR rating is going to take a lot of work. He can do that now, while he has the time. Pass the flying test, pass the written, relax a little bit. The downside - he'll have to put in a little extra flying, which should make him a better pilot, give him more hours, which will make him more employable, and cost an amount which is not significant to me. He wants to do it, I’ve done the cost-benefit analysis, and am willing to foot the bill.

In my world, you can trust your kid if you raised him right, a 16-year-old can be self motivated, and good character can be developed with flipping burgers. I think I'll stay here - your world seems a little dark and desolate to me.

[MIQ]

God, life must be sweet if you just have to do some lawn mowing and the flight training is being paid for. But then again, working 8 hours at the flight school just to buy another ground school book makes reading it more enjoyable.
I can understand that you want to be efficient with the flight training but it all seems a little bit rushed to me. Graduating high school and getting a Multin IFR and Floats CPL seems a bit too much for me. I don't think that waiting until the kid turns 17 to continue with the CPL career isn't too much of a waste of time. If you finish that CPL being 18 or 18 1/2 doesn't make a huge difference and getting all those licenses and ratings should be fun too and not just 'work' cramped into a busy schedule.
Btw. a requirement for the IFR rating are 50 hours PIC cross country that you can't really get without a PPL. That's a lot of flying that needs to be taken into consideration when planning on getting everything done in a short period of time. For the IFR you will also need 40 hours instrument time so together with a Multi Rating that would be 100 hrs of flying. If you only fly twice a week because you're also going to high school, then that by itself will take pretty much a year if you also take weather as a limiting factor into consideration.

(b) Experience

An applicant shall have completed a minimum of:
(i) 50 hours of cross-country flight as pilot-in-command in aeroplanes or helicopters of which 10 hours must be in the appropriate category; and
(ii) 40 hours of instrument time of which a maximum of 20 hours may be instrument ground time. The 40 hours instrument time shall include a minimum of: [...]

[Shiny Side Up]

Remember, the advice is what you paid me for it bub. Mere suggestions, you can take it for what its worth. You might want to keep in mind that I have trained dozens of kids to fly airplanes, and I've seen all sorts of shenanigans. Sometimes its like the parents themselves forgot what it was like to be teenagers when they get some of their own.

Either way, the point wasn't to make him work for his flight training - that's up to you - but rather to make sure value is placed into his flight training. The worst thing I always see happen is the attitude "well he needs hours" which doesn't encourage good performance out of student pilots. Flying isn't just happy fun time for the student, its work and serious business. I'm saying be careful you don't let him fall into that trap. I do view it as easier for students to fall into that trap if they don't directly pay for it, but that's my opinion. IN the air and on the ground performance counts soooo much and is valued so little by many students (and their sponsors). Like I said, make sure there's plan for his training that is specific to accomplish certain goals, don't do it just to chunk in the hours. With that in mind, get the license, get the plane, then concentrate on some real world flying which will build far better experience for him than spending a ton of it tied to the apronstrings of the flight training system.

Here's something to think about. Before he has a license, if he's doing any "time building" (I personally hate that term and its implications) he's going to be stuck doing either grotesque ammounts of dual time consecutively (which again my warnings about instrucotrs and schools apply) or highly restricted on where he goes solo, which personally I think would be detrimental to his pilot skills. Rather if he has the RPP or PPL then he's free to geet going while also training towards the ratings he desires, but also able to intersperse that sooner with some good practical flying so by the time he's done his commercial he's a better and more independant pilot. Again, just my opinon.

And yeah, it is dark and desolate in this world. That's life, get a helmet. Oh, and your teenage son is doing stuff he's not telling you about.

[Colonel Sanders]

Working in high school usually does more harm than good

Not sure about that. All through high school, I worked two jobs - at a
convenience store during the week, and at a garage on the weekend,
and I got the highest marks in the school (shrug).

FWIW: don't confuse paper qualifications, with actual skill and knowledge.
This is a really important distinction for you (or any pilot) to learn. They
are only loosely coupled, at best.

There are pilots with lots of paper that I wouldn't let push my lawnmower.
They are an embarrassment to us all. I'm sure everyone knows of some
of these weiners.

There are pilots with no paper whatsoever who are incredible sticks. We
all know some stories of those people, too (pulled medicals, etc).

Free advice: I might suggest that your son fly twice a day, weather
permitting. That is the advice I give to any pilot with less than 1000TT.

I know a little bit about this subject. I have been an instructor for
20 years. I soloed my son in our 210hp tailwheel Maule at 14, and
in one of our Pitts S-2B's at age 16. He got his airshow pilot card
and flew formation aerobatics in his first airshow at age 19.

http://www.pittspecials.com/images/eric_form1.jpg
http://www.pittspecials.com/images/geneseo.jpg

Again, don't confuse paper with real skill and knowledge. Work
very hard to acquire both, in proportion.

PS Along the way, have some fun. All work and no play make jack
a dull boy. Here is my son and I on the runway:

[2cdneh]

It's been great to get a lot of information from everybody. I think I now understand the rules and limitations of his pre-PPL flying. I know that he can take the IFR tests whenever he completes the requirements. I will be much better informed when I talk to Transport Canada.

I’m going to let him continue to fly as much as he wants to. Right now his flight lessons are carefully planned and every flight has specific objectives – he isn’t wasting money or flight time, and he’s improving every day. It’s not going to burn him out or stress him – it’s his idea of fun. If you watched any of the fine young men and women at the Olympics, you can see that there are many hard-working self-motivated kids. While he’s doing that flying, he might as well be working towards his ratings once he completes the PPL course. He knows that he can slow down any time that he wants to, and that school must come first. I will build a computer model for him with all of the various ratings requirements and CPL requirements, so he can work through various scenarios and determine how many duplicate dual hours might be required. I'll suggest that he get his RPP, which should not require any additional test, so he can go cross-country before his 17th birthday, which he'll need for the IFR anyway. It does appear that it might take him more than two years to get everything done, or he might be flying every day over the summers, and get it all done – that’s up to him, not me.

I appreciate the expertise on regulations. I appreciate the expertise on flight training. The information I’ve learned has been invaluable. Thanks everybody, and especially Shiny, who clearly knows a lot about flying and the regulations. However, I’m going to ignore your parenting advice. Maybe the kids you know are lazy, don’t push themselves to achieve, don’t appreciate the value of money, secretly binge-drink, and can’t be trusted. If your kids know you don’t expect them to be honest, they’ll live down to your expectations. I’ll skip your desolate view and take Eric Idle’s advice – always look on the bright side of life.

Better be careful Colonel Sanders, on this thread you’re going to be accused of pushing your kid too hard and burning him out. Nice bikes. We’ve got a pair of KLR 650s for adventure touring, and my kid has a Ninja 250. He took his big-bike license on his 16th birthday, and two weeks later we rode coast-to-coast together on the two KLRs; he wanted to do a charity ride and thought it was pretty cool to be the youngest person ever to ride across Canada on a motorcycle. I can’t do the sport-bikes anymore, my back can’t handle it, but I do miss my VTR1000. Good suggestion on the double flights. He’s done a number of back-to-back lessons when he has been able to arrange it. It’s a 30 minute ride on his Ninja to the airport, so it behooves him to make the most of the hour total transit time.

Thanks again everybody

[jump154]

Slight digressions - but still vaguely on topic!

(B) 30 hours solo flight time including:
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(I) 25 hours solo flight time emphasizing the improvement of general flying skills of the applicant which shall include a cross-country flight to a point of a minimum of 300 nautical mile radius from the point of departure and shall include a minimum of 3 landings at points other than that of departure; and
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

In the case of someone like me, who has a PPL and has been enjoying themselves flying around as a PPL - if at some point in the future I decided to work on a CPL, do I have to do an additional 25 hours solo - or can all the solo time I've accumulated since PPL count towards this requirement? For the sake of argument say I'm 200 hours TT, with a night rating, got PPL at 90 hours.

[Bede]

I got a slight chuckle out of the plan. I remember I did the exact same thing- I made an ambitious plan as well. Life just has a way of turning to ashes every one of our best laid plans.

I should mention as well that the operating cost for a Challenger will be significantly higher than $20/hr. I am guessing more in the ballpark of $80/hr.

All the best to your son.

[2cdneh]

Wowsers! $80/hr! I think fuel's gonna be $15/hr, but let's say $25/hr. The TBO on the Rotax 582 is 300 hrs, but hardly anybody actually does a complete rebuilt at 300 hrs, but if you did and spent $3000 (the new engine is only $6400) that would be $10/hr.

What are the other expenses that bring it from $35/hr to $80/hr? I know spark plugs are expensive, but still.....

[ahramin]

Bede, not counting engine overhaul (who knows how many hours I'm going to overhaul it at) I'm under $80/hour to fly my BD-4. I would think a homebuilt classed challenger with a Rotax would be cheaper than that.

2cdneh, from what I know about Rotax engines (nothing) the fuel costs alone appear to be $20-25 an hour.

[Shiny Side Up]

Maybe the kids you know are lazy, don’t push themselves to achieve, don’t appreciate the value of money, secretly binge-drink, and can’t be trusted. If your kids know you don’t expect them to be honest, they’ll live down to your expectations. I’ll skip your desolate view and take Eric Idle’s advice – always look on the bright side of life.

You know best for your kid man. You're just lucky you don't have a daughter going through this process. No one said these kids were bad kids (though there were a few I would say had real problems, they fortunately were in the minority) I could tell you a lot of tales where kids have ingeniously worked around their parents desires, and the flight school is a great place for them to cook them up. Just remember, the instructor is there to teach them to fly, not to babysit them.

Better be careful Colonel Sanders, on this thread you’re going to be accused of pushing your kid too hard and burning him out.

The Colonel has the distinct advantage of both being an instructor and having access to a plane to do training with, so he can excersise complete control over any of his son's flight training. Raising the kid around airplanes probably helps too. On that topic, its the ideal way to go about it. The best stick I know of as a student also had his own plane from the get go - but he did have to work for it (gasp!) Dad bought a Citabria and sold jr. a half share when he had enough money saved up. Jr. also took the remarkable step of finding a job at the airport to pay for his training. Now keep in mind that put him age wise behind your kid by a few years, but he's probably leap years ahead. He's 18 now and busy working on getting a CPL, and various ratings. But he now has the advantage of knowing already about airplane ownership, has plenty of tailwheel time, and work experience in the field. I've already made him an offer of employment as an instructor should he choose to do that route.

Enough about the parenting advise though, let me trade hats and give you some advice as a future boss for your child. IF you have such dreams of the boy going on a successful career as a pilot I'd implore you to get him a job, if not to show him the value of a dollar, then to show him what work is about. You can't ever start early on this. I get a lot of bright young faces handing me resumes, and I certainly value any work experience they have when they apply. If you can, get your kid washing airplanes at the airport - I used to offer a this job to kids, but as of late there are no takers. It pays minimum wage, but has a bonus of %10 off your airplane rental costs. You might be able to negotiate a similar deal at your school, but no promises. The problem with a lot of the fresh pilots these days is many since they have no work experience, while they may be good sticks, make terrible employees, and your child will find out how "desolate" life is when I have to fire their ass. Its become so that I won't hire kids without work experience anymore.

Not sure about that. All through high school, I worked two jobs - at a
convenience store during the week, and at a garage on the weekend,
and I got the highest marks in the school (shrug).

I've been gainfully employed since I was 14, if you don't count working on the farm since I was able. I had high enough marks in school to apply for the forces out of school for pilot selection, which was an above 80% average at the time, only to discover I'm slightly nearsighted, so there went that plan. I managed to finish my CPL with multi and IFR at 21, so I don't think it held me back that much paying my own way through flight training. The bonus of course being that I've never had to worry about being unemployed since.

[ahramin]

I gave this some more thought last night. I think maybe your son is in a "madly off in all directions" situation. What good are the instrument or multi-engine ratings going to do for someone flying a Challenger around? You can't fly it IFR, and it only has one engine. The amateur-built CofA Challenger on amphib floats idea is a fantastic one. By the time your son has 200 hours for the CPL he'll have at least 100 hours of amphib time, which is going to be incredibly useful getting that first job, and possibly many jobs after that. But if he has his instrument rating at less than 100 hours, and then does the next 100-200 hours in an aircraft that can't be flown IFR, he might as well have not done the instrument rating in the first place for all the good it has done him. Same for the multi-engine.

Get the night rating done as soon as possible. Get the Challenger as soon as possible. Then fly the thing as much as possible. What a PPL with 50-100 hours needs more than anything else is not more instruction, it's more flying. Especially if that flying is done in an aircraft that is owned and taken care of by the pilot himself.

[Shiny Side Up]

I know a little bit about this subject. I have been an instructor for
20 years. I soloed my son in our 210hp tailwheel Maule at 14, and
in one of our Pitts S-2B's at age 16. He got his airshow pilot card
and flew formation aerobatics in his first airshow at age 19.

I just wanted to revisit this since its such an ingenious scheme. Make your own students! How much did you charge your son for flight lessons? If Bluenote would have figured this out he would have had triplets a long time ago. Get them jobs, then get for them to buy flight training from yourself! Sure fire way to get that class 3 upgrade.

Kudos, Colonel, that's so evil I wish I thought of it myself!

[2cdneh]

The Challenger purchase is a little further along in the process. I want him to have done the PPL and the bush course first, both to have the experience and to show his committment, before I spend the bucks on the plane. It will be more of a supplement to his training, rather than a big part of the core hours for the CPL. That said, it may be reasonable to use some of the hours to reduce the CPL cost. It will allow him to get a lot of float time, which should help with finding a bush job. It also makes it a lot easier for him to continue to build his skills (and hours) should he not step into a flight job immediately.

He wants to do the IFR as part of the getting the "full package" of night, multi, ifr, and CPL. He'll be flying with the school with a full IFR panel even while he's also building hours on the Challenger.

It may turn out that he's not quite done yet by the time he graduates high school, in which case he could get one of those character-building jobs I keep hearing about, finish the CPL, and fly his brains out in the Challenger, and look for job the folowing season. It's two years out, hard to know at this point. He does have some part-time work experience, but the owner of the corporation where he worked wouldn't make a good reference - a letter of recommendation from your own father won't carry much weight

What is the normal hiring season for bush pilots and related non-flying jobs?

[Grantmac]

I would caution you from looking at the hour figure. The problem with that is the likelyhood of him flying the "same" hour over and over again.
Teenagers like him thrive on challenge. That "same hour" approach eventually diminishes the challenge. Maintaining challenge is important to improving skills.
Personally I think the RPP is a good approach, it'll let him get away from the FTU and learn some aeronautical independance. Just make the rule of no passengers, you seem to trust that rules will be followed.

Since clearly the resources are there, maybe you should look at a few other options which will increase his real skills while perhaps not greatly increasing the "paper" ones:
1) Gliding. You can be fully licensed at 16. It builds some of the best flying skills available and everyone works when you glide. Plus you can count some hours towards a commercial.
2) Tailwheel. Not a rating in Canada, but again a major increaser in skills.
3) Follow-on to #2 would be some unusual attitudes/aerobatics. I'm not sure where you are located but it seems you have the resources to send him somewhere to get this done. Maybe make it a vacation and do it somewhere nice. Motorcycle trip to Arizona or Florida perhaps?
4) Fly as many different types as possible. If you have several schools operating different aircraft then get him some time in each.

Honesty moments here:
1) I grew-up riding bikes and flying. I was an honor student. I owned firearms from my early teens. By definition I was one of the "good" and "responsible" teens (although not with his resources, I had to work for it). I still did dumb shit, because thats what teenagers do. Its called life-lessons and I wouldn't trade any of them.
2) Most companies will hire low-time employee's based on life experience. The current course you are on isn't giving him much that they will consider useful. Consider looking into a ramp job (or better yet, mechanics helper) with the FTU he is training at. Its not flipping burgers and he'll learn a lot more of what keeps aircraft in the air.
3) Good luck operating anything on floats for less than $60-100/hr. Unless you want to use it for 2-3 years then throw it away. Water is hard on planes, especially fabric ones.
4) All the hours and resources in the world MAY not land an 18yo CPL his first job.

-Grant