AIR TRANSAT FALL LAYOFF here we are...

[WestCoastPilot]

Sorry to all affected by this layoff. To what Date-of-Hire do the layoffs go for the pilots? FAs?
Do they think it will be season and that the pilots will be recalled a few months later, like last year with Air Transat?

West

[Gilles Hudicourt]

And all this happening under one BIG umbrella at Transat and Canjet called ALPA. Those that live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Dan Adamus, ALPA Canada President spoke against this in front of a Senate Transport Committee:

http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/sen/commi ... 9221-E.HTM

Today, in keeping with your stated objective, I would like to also address those issues that we think are the emerging issues related to the airline industry. The emerging issues that we see look to the future of the Canadian airline industry. To some degree, they are interconnected. I would like to speak to the issue of foreign pilots in Canada, bilateral agreements and pilot return, retention and recruitment.

There is a trend among some Canadian air carriers to augment their flight crew contingent on a seasonal basis with foreign pilots. Foreign pilots have been hired at Sunwing, CanJet and what was Skyservice. In some cases, the foreign pilots fly the carriers' Canadian-registered aircraft; in others, the Canadian carrier uses both foreign aircraft and crew.

Foreign workers require a permit to work in Canada. Employers wishing to engage foreign workers can assist them in obtaining this permit by making an application to HRSDC for a labour market opinion, or an LMO. The guidelines for the foreign worker program stipulate that eligible foreign workers are allowed to work in Canada for an authorized period if the employer can demonstrate that they are unable to find suitable Canadians or permanent residents to fill the jobs and that the entry of the workers will not have a negative impact on the Canadian labour market. The employers in these cases stipulate that the pilots must be type-rated, which is different than having a licence, on a certain model of aircraft. Rather than hire non-rated pilots and train them, the carrier applies to have foreign pilots fill the positions on a seasonal members basis.

We are of the opinion that there is not currently a shortage of pilots in Canada. Rather than utilizing the labour market opinion to fill genuine personnel shortages, the program is being used to create economic advantages as the carriers can eliminate training costs and hire a pilot only seasonally.

May I give you an example of the testimony before you of Mr. Hugh Dunleavy of WestJet? You may recall that he spoke of WestJet's growth to 100 aircraft, the same type of aircraft, Boeing 737NGs, for which some operators say they are unable to hire pilots. He stated that over the next few years they had another 38 aircraft on order. That is 38 aircraft. He made no mention whatsoever of any problem recruiting pilots to fly WestJet's 737NG aircraft.

That being said, since when do unions run Airlines ? Your comment was ridiculous. So Sunwing pilots are not allowed to oppose the use of Foreign pilots in Canada because their own company makes abuses in that field ?

[TFTMB heavy]

Mig: Air Transat Pilots never gave permission to Transat because Transat owns Air Transat and doesn't need permission to charter other carriers to haul passengers.

[termerair]

To what Date-of-Hire do the layoffs go for the pilots?

So far it goes up to May 2011.

Do they think it will be season and that the pilots will be recalled a few months later, like last year with Air Transat?

IMHO, it won't be another seasonal layoff. The company is actually downsizing the fleet.

Good luck!

T.

[bigskyjoc]

So let's see here. Transat sub-contracts Canjet the lowest paying B737 operator for lift. Canjet in turn hires seasonal foreigners to fill in the gaps for years with ZERO reciprocation and expands steadily. Now Transat lays off and your telling us its Sunwings fault. So if Canjets low wages were to put Sunwing out of business even while using foreigners I suppose everything would be OK in your world right? Sorry I don't buy it and I hope those that are laid-off from Transat a speedy return back to work and meaningful reciprocation occurs across the industry.


Cheers

[Gilles Hudicourt]

So let's see here. Transat sub-contracts Canjet the lowest paying B737 operator for lift. Canjet in turn hires seasonal foreigners to fill in the gaps for years with ZERO reciprocation and expands steadily. Now Transat lays off and your telling us its Sunwings fault. So if Canjets low wages were to put Sunwing out of business even while using foreigners I suppose everything would be OK in your world right? Sorry I don't buy it and I hope those that are laid-off from Transat a speedy return back to work and meaningful reciprocation occurs across the industry.


Cheers

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. I can post all the same arguments here over and over again to reply to the same unfounded statements, but I can't force you to read any of them and I won't fall for trolling.

Some may find my posts too long.
Some may find my sentences too long.
Some do not like to read.
Some just cannot read well.
Some have Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.
Some of you are trolls.
Some just don't give a damn and state anything they like regardless of what's already been said.

For any of the above people:

Canjet foreign pilots = BAD.
Sunwing foreign pilots = BAD.
Any foreign pilots, except those under a REAL one-on-one reciprocity = BAD.

As an afterthought : Westjet foreign pilots = BAD

[Agrios Anemos]

Pretty Sure Can Jet did some flying for sunwing this summer when they needed them.

Wonder what AT thought about that.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Pretty Sure Can Jet did some flying for sunwing this summer when they needed them.

Wonder what AT thought about that.

Rather than face downsizing and with the prospect of again seeing foreign pilots flying in Canada while our people are on UI, I wouldn't mind if Air Transat itself did some flying for Sunwing!

[ea306]

Now if Thomas Cook were not in financial trouble and did not have to back away from the Widebody Atlantic Oceanic flying; would Air Transat still of hired as many pilots as it did recently? Was it not the loss of lift provided by the foriegn operator Thomas Cook that compelled Air Transat to expand and hire more Canadian pilots? Could it possibly even be that this change in circumstances has also contributed to Air Transat loss of profits?

Prior to Thomas Cook downsizing; Air Transat were flying with less Canadian Pilots but were in a position to offer year round stable employment and to enjoy profitability. Now there is no longer a foreign operator to work in cooperation with at the moment.
What is the Result? Air Transat are not enjoying profitability and recently hired Canadian pilots are facing seasonal layoffs or possibly even worse.

Air Transat has lost a European partner with whom to share lift. This did result in less European pilots flying wide bodies and more Canadians being hired at AirTransat....for a time. This also resulted in loss of profitability and also created unstable employment.

I hope Air Transat will be able to adapt to the times and adjust their business model as needed in order to continue to enjoy the successes like they have achieved all these years. Air Transat is a great company with really great people. I sincerely hope things will get better soon. And who is to say Gilles, perhaps Air Transat could be providing lift for Sunwing one day. Anything is possible in this business.

I genuinely sympathize with those facing layoffs and hope you will be flying again real soon. Like many, I too have been in this position more than once in my career. I recall Thomas Cook and others expanding in the Atlantic Crossing flying back in 2002 when Canada 3000 went out of business. I remember well as I had lost my job as a Widebody Captain and was dismayed to see the flying that I had done the year before being done by a European Carrier by European Pilots. Canadian passengers being flown by non Canadian pilots with a non Canadian company.

That is the way it went. It is a global industry.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Now if Thomas Cook were not in financial trouble and did not have to back away from the Widebody Atlantic Oceanic flying; would Air Transat still of hired as many pilots as it did recently? Was it not the loss of lift provided by the foriegn operator Thomas Cook that compelled Air Transat to expand and hire more Canadian pilots? Could it possibly even be that this change in circumstances has also contributed to Air Transat loss of profits?

Prior to Thomas Cook downsizing; Air Transat were flying with less Canadian Pilots but were in a position to offer year round stable employment and to enjoy profitability. Now there is no longer a foreign operator to work in cooperation with at the moment.
What is the Result? Air Transat are not enjoying profitability and recently hired Canadian pilots are facing seasonal layoffs or possibly even worse.

Air Transat has lost a European partner with whom to share lift. This did result in less European pilots flying wide bodies and more Canadians being hired at AirTransat....for a time. This also resulted in loss of profitability and also created unstable employment.

I hope Air Transat will be able to adapt to the times and adjust their business model as needed in order to continue to enjoy the successes like they have achieved all these years. Air Transat is a great company with really great people. I sincerely hope things will get better soon. And who is to say Gilles, perhaps Air Transat could be providing lift for Sunwing one day. Anything is possible in this business.

I genuinely sympathize with those facing layoffs and hope you will be flying again real soon. Like many, I too have been in this position more than once in my career. I recall Thomas Cook and others expanding in the Atlantic Crossing flying back in 2002 when Canada 3000 went out of business. I remember well as I had lost my job as a Widebody Captain and was dismayed to see the flying that I had done the year before being done by a European Carrier by European Pilots. Canadian passengers being flown by non Canadian pilots with a non Canadian company.

That is the way it went. It is a global industry.

You make it sound like Air Transat uses other carriers. Its not that way at all. It never was.

Transat AT owns Air Transat and many other companies. A few, like Air Transat, were founded by the Transat AT Group but most of the others already existed and were subsequently purchased by the Group Transat.

Transat AT owns Transat Holidays, Nolitours, Vacances Transat, Transat discoveries, Merika Tours, Vacances Tours Mont-Royal, Look Voyage, Amplitravel, Canadian Affair, Eleva Travel, Jonview Canada, Tourgreece and many others.......

For example, Canadian Affair, a UK based tour operator that sells packages to Canada, was founded in 1995. It was only purchased by Transat AT in 2006. At the time it did not charter Air Transat for its flights to Canada. For a number of years, it continued chartering the airlines it had been under contract with (Thomas Cook) before it was purchased by Transat AT, probably to fulfill contract obligations. Transat had the same year purchased all Thomas Cook travel agencies in Canada. Its not because Transat AT purchases a tour operator that it will instruct that tour operators management to immediately cease all its contractual obligations with previous carriers and start doing business exclusively with Air Transat. Sometimes Air Transat never gets a share of the pie at all. For example Transat AT purchased French-based tour operator Look Voyage. Look Voyage sells sun destinations from France. Canada not being a sun destination, Look Voyage does not sell flights to Canada. As a consequence, Look Voyage cannot and does not charter Air Transat for any of its flights. It uses European carriers.

Transat AT also owns French based tour operator Vacances Transat. Although this company sells tours to Canada that the airlines Air Transat does do, it also sells packages from France to many other parts of the world which are done by other airlines that are not owned by Transat AT. Transat AT also owns French tour operator Amplitravel which specializes in tours from France to Tunisia. Air Transat plays no role whatsoever in these tours.

Transat AT-owned tour operators have always sold a series of small niche packages from Canada which were not important enough to dedicate a full aircraft, and for which the tour operators always used third party airlines for the air portions. Air Transat pilots had always been accustomed to this and it never bothered us, for it had always been that way from day one, and we understood it.

Air Transat is not a real airline. It does not sell tickets. We provide, under contract, Air transport to Tour Operators, just like Canjet. The airline is contracted to do flights by tour operators that are owned by Transat AT and these tour operators have, to some degree I imagine, the latitude to use the airline they please. I'm stating from memory buy I think that Air Transat has historically only hauled about 70% of the Group Transat passengers, the rest being done by third party airlines........

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Let me make up a fictional scenario for you, to better explain what is happening here in Canada. Sometimes one has to take a few steps back and imagine the setting in a reverse scenario to be able to understand what is going on in one's own back yard.

Canadian Transat AT owns French-based Look Voyage, a Tour Operator (this is the only true part of the scenario, the rest is fiction). Then they also buy 49% of a French airline, XL Airways France, which operates 3 A-330s with 50 pilots on staff, and does flights year round for Look Voyage. In the winter, Air Transat, which because of domestic issues, has surplus wide-body aircraft and crews, dry-leases 9 A-330s to XL Airways for 6 months, and we lend them the pilots to go with them, about 135 pilots, at a nominal price, plus expenses. This brings the XL fleet to 12 A-330s and 185 pilots, 75% of which are Canadian. It's a 400% overnight increase in fleet size.

Then Corsairfly, a French charter airline which is the main competitor to XL Airways, which operates 9 aircraft year-round, announces that because of a reduction in business, it has to downsize and lay off 50 French pilots........

I can just picture the headlines........

[ea306]

Good story.

And the 50 French Pilots are going to lobby to stop wet leasing etc and make the Tour Operator only buy lift from France. Then Germany will do the same, then Spain, Italy, Britain, Ireland...and before you know it the global community becomes as it was before WWII.

Both airlines are not real airlines and both tour operators have big multinational ties to Europe. It's big business.

It's a Global Industry.

[WestCoastPilot]

When I interviewed (unsuccessfully) with Air Transat in early 2011, the interviewers mentioned that the company was looking at getting either B737NGs or the A320 series of aircraft and hoping to bring the CanJet flying back in house. At the time, Air Transat was on a hiring binge, and all three people doing the interview appeared not only optimistic that it would happen, they also appeared to be irritated that Group Transat flying was farmed out to CanJet.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Good story.

.... to stop wet leasing .....

My story made no mention of wet leasing......

[ea306]

Etc....

[Gilles Hudicourt]

[OPEC6-Heavy]

Gilles,
How do the pilots at Garuda feel about a 3 months wet lease of Foreign Canadian pilots and C reg aircraft (5 A330's)? Is there supposed to be reciprocity in this agreement?(rhetorical question), I see that it only benefits Canadian pilots 100% and that's a good thing... 2nd or 3rd year TS has been doing this, I wonder when the Garuda pilots will start to become militant about this? Anyways, I think it's great TS can profit from this venture and hope it continues for years to come.

[aerodude]

Back to the topic, we cannot only blame foreign pilots for the lay off. You have to remember AT management screwed up fuel hedge bets and decided to spend 55$ million on upgrading aircraft interior during an economic recession. These two alone are going to be big write downs.
I expect more lay offs. 12 A330's are getting upgraded along with only 6 A310's in the next two years. That's 18 aircraft, what do you think is going to happen to the other A310's? The rest of the short haul flying will go to Canjet who by the way employs foreign pilots.
I bet they didn't tell you that during the interview. Not according to some of my colleagues that got recruited there a year ago that are getting laid off.
Once again the VP's will earn their million dollar cheques while us "civilians" get shafted again.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Back to the topic, we cannot only blame foreign pilots for the lay off.

We are not only blaming this on foreign pilots. If Sunwing had competed with us last winter with its 24 aircraft, exactly the way it did, at the prices that it did, but all those aircraft had been flown by Canadians, we'd probably be exactly where we are now.

What we are saying is how can the government justify issuing hundreds of work permits to foreign pilots to work for Canadian Airlines when there are many qualified pilots in Canada, many of which are or will shortly be be on UI ?

How can Canjet ask HRSDC for LMOs to hire foreign pilots on the basis that there is a pilot shortage in Canada?

How can Sunwing import 150 to 200 foreign pilots (according to how you count), send zero to fifty pilots overseas (again, according to how you count) and claim this is done under a reciprocity deal that is supposed to have a "zero labor impact" ?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

And all this happening under one BIG umbrella at Transat and Canjet called ALPA. Those that live in glass houses should not throw stones.

From a Jan 6th, 2012 Ottawa Citizen article:

But Capt. Dan Adamus, president of the Canada board of the Air Line Pilots Association, said the program is being used by Sunwing and CanJet to bring in foreigners when Canadian pilots could be trained to do the same jobs. He contends that the airlines are using the temporary workers program as a way to avoid paying for pilot training.

From the Spring 2012 ALPA Canada board Communiqué newsletter:

Dan Adamus, ALPA Canada Board President

The Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l is fully engaged with government officials and agencies, airline managements, trade associations, and other labour groups to address the key issues facing Canadian pilots. Whether it’s flight-time/duty-time and rest regulations, the Temporary Foreign Worker Program, government intervention in collective bargaining, taxes on the industry, or safety and security issues, we are moving forward with our strategic plan as our guide to achieve our mutual goals.

By Brad Small ALPA Canada Board Vice President

One of the biggest issues currently affecting Canadian pilots is the trend among some Canadian air carriers to augment their crew contingent, on a seasonal basis, with foreign pilots, through the Temporary Foreign Worker Program (TFWP). Under this program, employers wishing to hire foreign workers can help them obtain the required permit by applying to the office of Human Resources and
Skills Development Canada (HRSDC) for a labour market opinion (LMO).
At a time when some Canadian airlines are furloughing pilots, the Air Line Pilots Association, Intfl is concerned that the program is being used to create economic advantage as a carrier can eliminate type rating costs and hire pilots only seasonally.
ALPA's Canada Board has made this a top priority and has launched a multipronged campaign to raise our concerns with members of Parliament (MPs) and government officials and advocate for amendments to the program. ALPA has also worked with certain airlines to mitigate the effects of foreign pilots on their pilot groups.
So what is at issue and why is it so important to Canadian pilots? Following is an analysis of some of the factors that, by law, must be considered when an employer who wants to hire foreign workers applies to Service Canada for an LMO, and ALPAfs views regarding the current situation in Canada.

Factor #1: Is employment of foreign workers likely to result in direct job creation/retention for Canadians?
ALPA believes that the hiring of foreign pilots can have an adverse effect on job retention/creation. We are of the opinion that there is a surplus of qualified Canadian pilots who could fill these positions, and that carriers should first hire these qualified pilots before supplementing its roster of permanent pilots with foreign nationals.

Factor #2: Is employment of foreign workers likely to result in the creation or transfer of skills and knowledge for the benefit of Canadian citizens/permanent residents?
Foreign pilots seeking to be hired by a Canadian carrier must have the same skill set and qualifications as those Canadian pilots currently in the carrierfs employ, thus there is no gain.

Factor #3: Is the employment of foreign nationals likely to fill a labour shortage?
The current economic slowdown has caused a softening of demand for air travel, which in turn has
led to a reduction of airline capacity at many Canadian carriers

Factor #4: Are wages offered to foreign workers consistent with the prevailing wage rates for the occupation?
ALPA understands that Service Canada expects employers to offer the prevailing wage rate paid to Canadians in the same occupation in the region and that where the pilot is part of a bargaining unit, the collective agreement would generally govern the wage structure. We believe the wage structure should be comparable to that paid for crews of like aircraft and/or aircraft of a similar weight and class operated in the same region(s). There are instances where a carrier applies for an LMO in the region where it is based, but bases the foreign pilots in a different region. A marked discrepancy from the prevailing wage rate could undermine the position of other pilot groups—a result that would not be seen to be a neutral or positive effect on the labour market.

Factor #5: Has the employer made or agreed to make reasonable efforts to hire or train Canadian citizens/permanent residents?
Service Canada checks to see if the prospective employer has published sufficient advertising in appropriate publications. The issue as we see it is that air carriers using the program have advertised for pilots who are qualified to operate a particular type of aircraft—a Boeing 737 Next
Generation (737 NG). This has the effect of eliminating from consideration other pilot candidates.
As we went to press, the finance minister had just presented the 2012 federal budget. In it, the government indicated that there will be changes to the TFWP “to ensure that businesses
have made all reasonable efforts to recruit from the domestic labour force before accessing the [TFWP].” ALPA will continue to monitor this as further details are provided in the next few months.
This issue will continue to be a top priority for ALPA and the Canada Board. We will make every effort to help level the playing field for Canadian pilots, protect their jobs, and bring our furloughed members in Canada back to the cockpit.

[fivemoreminutes]

Giles,

Canjet has postponed its next GS until we know for sure when your team lays off. I'm sure we will welcome all those who choose to come over.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Fantastic news.......

[sanjet]

Giles,

Canjet has postponed its next GS until we know for sure when your team lays off. I'm sure we will welcome all those who choose to come over.

Will the application still be accepted if they don't have 737 ratings. I ask because the minimum requirements indicated that a 737 rating is required to even be considered.

[fivemoreminutes]

Never has been. There are currently several new hires on course without an NG type rating. And many more who are on the line. Please apply!

[Joe Blow Schmo]

Never has been. There are currently several new hires on course without an NG type rating. And many more who are on the line. Please apply!

You have guys flying the line without an NG type rating?