getting a flying job these days !

[Mr.Blonde]

I have too much free time these days...and I read some threads where guys asked about the wait on the ramp at aviation X, or air Y, and each time the thread went into a debate about the fact that a profesionnal pilot shouldn't do the ramp...and that made me think, what's the chance for a guys these days to get a flying job and avoid the ramp/dispatch/instructor way.


Here's the situation;

Considering all the movement right now in the industry, what's the chance of a fresh CPL/MULTI/IFR, 200TT, no instructor rating, no float, no contact,non-related aviation experience, university diploma, to get a flying job as a first aviation job, willing to work and to move everywhere in canada. And he put above average effort in his job search, road trip, network, mail, follow up, etc.

[fish4life]

I voted then read I change from slim chance to no chance, if you have no contacts and don't put in much work trying you have 0% chance of getting a job

[Meatservo]

Sorry, kids. I can tell the co-pilots who never worked on the ramp. In a cargo operation at least, I would rather have an extra 200 pounds of fuel than a co-pilot who makes me drive a forklift truck because he doesn't know how, lacks the strength to up-end a barrel, let alone 40 of them, can't tie a knot or operate a herc strap without hands-on supervision, doesn't know where the mops and buckets are kept, etc, etc, etc, and is also (at first) pretty inept at flying a plane, to boot. Worse than useless.

Maybe I should be ranting somewhere else than this thread, but the "don't accept anything but a flying job" attitude is pretty poor. You're not a sought-after highly-trained professional. I am. YOU are an apprentice. Get used to getting dirty.

[Mr.Blonde]

I voted then read I change from slim chance to no chance, if you have no contacts and don't put in much work trying you have 0% chance of getting a job

let say he's highly motivated...so I changed for above average in his job search but still no contact !

[Lost Lake]

Sorry, kids. I can tell the co-pilots who never worked on the ramp. In a cargo operation at least, I would rather have an extra 200 pounds of fuel than a co-pilot who makes me drive a forklift truck because he doesn't know how, lacks the strength to up-end a barrel, let alone 40 of them, can't tie a knot or operate a herc strap without hands-on supervision, doesn't know where the mops and buckets are kept, etc, etc, etc, and is also (at first) pretty inept at flying a plane, to boot. Worse than useless.

Maybe I should be ranting somewhere else than this thread, but the "don't accept anything but a flying job" attitude is pretty poor. You're not a sought-after highly-trained professional. I am. YOU are an apprentice. Get used to getting dirty.

+1

[jpilot77]

Highly motivated: so are the rest in the 8" pile!

[Kestral]

I agree that some time on the ramp is useful towards becoming a better co-pilot/pilot. Through my own personal experience, especially working in Yellowknife, where many come to work the ramp, the transition to a pilot seat is more seamless and actually easier on the pilot candidate in most respects. They learn a lot and are able to operate properly around an aircraft, use herc straps, sweep wings , roll drums, and so on and so forth.

However, I don't agree with the way some companies treat or pay their ramp guys/gals in waiting. And, I don't think it should take years on the ramp to move up. One season 3-6 months, whether winter or summer, should be enough for someone to get a handle on things. Of course many factors could dictate progression and how long it takes.

Like it or not working the ramp is part of the aviation landscape or culture in Canada. Most of us have either done it or most of us will have to. Myself included. . .

['CauseTheCaravanCan]

You're not a sought-after highly-trained professional. I am. YOU are an apprentice. Get used to getting dirty.

while I would take a more humble approach, that's still very well said.

honestly, you can tell the guys who took a flying job direct even now, when they've got 3000-4000 hours, still getting
other people to advise them on how to load/strap large and unusual objects, fuel calculations,
and then letting other people take care of their basic ramp duties while they sit in an air conditioned
break room, and take their sweet time "finishing up my paperwork".

i know there are some detractors on here who will say, "if you could have taken direct entry wouldn't you have?"
the answer is absolutely "YES"
but it didn't happen that way, and I'm SO glad. I would have missed out on invaluable experience and character building.

If given the chance to learn the ropes on the ground for a bit first, do it. Otherwise someday, you'll be the guy with
3000 hours, when the company has had a quick turn of staff, and now people are looking at you for guidance, and you'll
look like a tool when you drive the forklift right into the side of an airplane 'cause it's "your first time."

[Doc]

Well, I'll admit, I can't drive a forklift. When I started, the bottom rung on the ladder was "oiler" on the Racer.
I'm an advocate of pilots being pilots, and ground staff being ground staff. And before 'caravan can, gets her knickers in a knot, try spending winters sleeping in trailers at forty below, and slugging it out on a fuel Dak on skiis for a couple of winters, in the bush?
Working ramps (sorry meat) is a way for operators to use cheap labour. Some of you like to think its character building, I think of it as treading water. Do you see other "professionals" (sorry Gilles) using new hires to grub it out in the parking lot before doing the job they were trained to do? Christ guys, you can down load free aps on your iPads on how to tie knots!
Now, for a totally different tack......go get 737 type rating on your ticket. 75% of every jet in the air RIGHT NOW is a 737!
You're going to be coughing up big bucks for bonds over the next few years anyway, why not put your money where it'll do something for YOU?

[Mr.Blonde]

Now, for a totally different tack......go get 737 type rating on your ticket. 75% of every jet in the air RIGHT NOW is a 737! You're going to be coughing up big bucks for bonds over the next few years anyway, why not put your money where it'll do something for YOU?

I can't see how a 737 type rating will help at 200TT, last time I looked at 737 F/O job local and oversea they need ATPL, and at least around 1500TT, plus or minus 200 on type...etc.!

I'm from a family where you better learn how to drive anything with engine from lawn mower to loader and trucks...otherwise the old man was really mad ! But last time I touched a fork lift, it was not somethings that everyone with a hands/feet eyes coordination can't do and learn the basics within a month! and for others ramp duty I think it can be learn in max 3-6 months and mastered overtimes !

and then letting other people take care of their basic ramp duties while they sit in an air conditioned
break room, and take their sweet time "finishing up my paperwork".

Maybe it's a lack of motivation from them, few hands work during days keep you in shape and girls like it when you came back home dirty !

[Doc]

You guys are are all thinking BUSH. Time to think outside the box. If Seneca grads can get into the right seat of Dash 8's there must be a loop hole on thr ATPL requirement somewhere. But, if you WANT to spend 24 months driving a fork lift in Bumf$&k Lake, by all means, have at it!

[X-Savior]

[JMACK]

You guys are are all thinking BUSH. Time to think outside the box. If Seneca grads can get into the right seat of Dash 8's there must be a loop hole on thr ATPL requirement somewhere. But, if you WANT to spend 24 months driving a fork lift in Bumf$&k Lake, by all means, have at it!

Were you thinking outside the box like this Doc?

http://www.eaglejet.net/HeavyJetPrograms.asp

I don't know anything about these guys............but there sure are alot of 737s around the globe! I think Boeing puts one out almost every day!

J

[Doc]

Actually....no Those guys take you from 0 time. Do some research. You could get a 737 on your ticket for about 10K. About the same amount you'd have to cough up for the right seat on a 1900D with (sorry) Wasaya?

[Doc]

I agree 100%, you can ALWAYS tell the pilots who never worked the ramp... and this shows up in WORK ETHIC. The guys who worked the ramp would always bust their butts at anything they did. The guys who never worked the ramp always stood around with their hands in their pockets.

When we were hiring new pilots we ALWAYS hired people off the ramp where we are based. We watch them closely and get to know them and then when time is right we invite them for an interview.

The only pilot recently we hired that was not from the ramp we ended up with many difficulties in the long term.

My suggestion is if you want a job you better get working the ramp for a year or two. You will learn a LOT about Operations / FBO's and make LOTS of contacts.

With 200TT you are about a half step from knowing nothing... just being honest. 200TT pretty much means 0 Knowledge int he eye's of operators. This is the point where you START to learn.

You are so absolutely full of CRAP!!! Nobody can make a blanket statement like that. As soon as you use words like "ALWAYS", your creditability goes right down the toilet! I've flown with guys who've worked more ramps than you've probably even taxied on, who can fornicate the puppy with the best of them! 1977 just called. They want you back where you belong.

[Doc]

When we were hiring new pilots we ALWAYS hired people off the ramp where we are based. We watch them closely and get to know them and then when time is right we invite them for an interview.
:

So, you get slave labour out of them, and THEN you "invite" them for an interview? Are you serious? How much money do you "milk" out of them for this golden opportunity?? Your kind of operation is one of the biggest problems facing this already FUBAR industry!

Where's my vomit bag??? This post disgusts me.
Go flip burgers!

[eterepekio]

When we were hiring new pilots we ALWAYS hired people off the ramp where we are based. We watch them closely and get to know them and then when time is right we invite them for an interview.
:

So, you get slave labour out of them, and THEN you "invite" them for an interview? Are you serious? How much money do you "milk" out of them for this golden opportunity?? Your kind of operation is one of the biggest problems facing this already FUBAR industry!

Where's my vomit bag??? This post disgusts me.
Go flip burgers!

That's how it works here Doc. The "Canadian Way" and people here justify it. They think its OK to be a slave!!! haha!

[Gear Jerker]

Sure it can be viewed as slave labour. Yes, it is the Canadian aviation industry way. And I think that the success of the Canadian aviation industry as a whole speaks for itself.
GPS direct and shooting an ILS is the easy part. And, it is a very small piece of the pie. The airplane is a tool to transport people and things to make money.
Ever notice how the only people who don't see the value in working the ramp are the ones who haven't done it?

[Doc]

Sure it can be viewed as slave labour. Yes, it is the Canadian aviation industry way. And I think that the success of the Canadian aviation industry as a whole speaks for itself.
GPS direct and shooting an ILS is the easy part. And, it is a very small piece of the pie. The airplane is a tool to transport people and things to make money.
Ever notice how the only people who don't see the value in working the ramp are the ones who haven't done it?

Ever notice he folks who DO see the "value" of working on ramps were pilots who did it? What's your point exactly? You did it, so everyone should? News flash: "GPS direct, and shooting a successful approach..." IS what's it's all about. It's called "flying" an airplane. Read your Licence. It has the word "PILOT" on it. Not "RAMP WORKER"!

What "success of the Canadian aviation industry....." do you speak? The masses of unemployed pilots? The staffing of charter flights all winter by off shore pilots? All the furloughed pilots collecting EI while this BS is allowed to continue? The "top flight" training college, who's instructors cant keep an airplane upright at night? Is this success? My who's measure? Not mine.

[Doc]

You start on a ramp with 250 hours. You work there for two years. You still have 250 hours. Must be missing something here. But that's to be expected, what with early onset Alzheimer's and all. I do know, that my first two "real" years in the industry, I flew about 1400 hours. All of it on DC3's. But, I never learned to drive a forklift. Poor me. It's a loss I'll have to learn to live with.

[Gear Jerker]

I'm not arguing that everybody must specifically work on the ramp before doing any flying, but what I am saying is that nobody should buy their way into the right seat of a 737, where your rookie mistakes can cost hundreds of lives and billions of dollars.
There should be a progression in one's career, like in any other career. Your "big break" should be into a Navajo, not a Boeing.

In Canada, it so happens that a common way to earn this "big break" is by working an entry level position in the company. It also happens that by working this entry level position before flying for the company, you have already learned everything else about the operation, so you can focus your entire effort on learning the airplane, and improving as a pilot.

As for the success of the industry, the fact is that an enormous variety of communities, camps, and operations, are sustained by aviation, by a large variety of operators, in a country that has the second largest land mass in the world. Canada has the second most licensed pilots in the world, but the 35th largest population.

Pointing out the failings of one flight college, and an economic driven hardship don't change this fact.

[flyingpickle]

Doc, I absolutely agree with you on all of the above. It looks like kids who had it tough want everybody else to have a sip of it....it reminds me of one country's military where I once served for 2 years on the opposite side of north pole, you get there and get beaten every night for first 6 months just because "grandfathers" (we used to call them that since they were there for 1.5 years already) had it the same way(and no you can't go and tell on them or you will end up handicapped or else), but that is a different story ...
Now i am in Canada for 10 years and worked all the machinery there is on oil rigs while earning my licences,I will be looking for my 1st job this coming winter and have a lot of motivation, but do I want to be on the ramp for 1-2 years?...NO,THANKS...1-3 months maybe...and if someone will say that i need to do it to build my character....well, i won't say anything...GOOD LUCK TO ALL!!!

[Doc]

I'm not arguing that everybody must specifically work on the ramp before doing any flying, but what I am saying is that nobody should buy their way into the right seat of a 737, where your rookie mistakes can cost hundreds of lives and billions of dollars.
There should be a progression in one's career, like in any other career. Your "big break" should be into a Navajo, not a Boeing.

In Canada, it so happens that a common way to earn this "big break" is by working an entry level position in the company. It also happens that by working this entry level position before flying for the company, you have already learned everything else about the operation, so you can focus your entire effort on learning the airplane, and improving as a pilot.

As for the success of the industry, the fact is that an enormous variety of communities, camps, and operations, are sustained by aviation, by a large variety of operators, in a country that has the second largest land mass in the world. Canada has the second most licensed pilots in the world, but the 35th largest population.

Pointing out the failings of one flight college, and an economic driven hardship don't change this fact.

A HUGE portion of the word would disagree with everything you've said. MANY pilots elsewhere in the world START their careers in the right seats of transport jets. MANY.
I would NEVER call a Navajo job, a "big break". That's total BS in the world we live in today.
As far as "rookie" mistakes costing "hundreds of lives and billions of dollars...." Again BS.
The "communities and camps...." sustained by aviation are very small potatoes in the world of aviation. One must start to think globally in this industry today. Not in terms of Navajo jobs and working ramps, but in flying overseas to get real experience. Unless you want to be a bush rat....many do, and good for them. Keep in mind, that "one flight college" is a really BIG one in this country.

[Colonel Sanders]

Working the ramp is like plumbing. You can learn pretty
much all you need to know in one day.

If you're still learning lots of new stuff after a year on
the ramp, I'm afraid there's not much hope for you.

I think working as a line boy is great experience for a
high school student that knows nothing about aviation
but is saving money to get his pilot licence.

[Chaxterium]

Allow me to weigh in.

I began my career directly into the right seat of a Twin Otter but I have nothing but respect for those who started their careers on the ramp and I can agree with what a lot of people are saying regarding the benefits of having worked the ramp. There are times when loading or fuel calculations or general route considerations become more complicated and I ended up having to take a few more seconds to think things through while some of my colleagues who worked the ramp are halfway done while I'm still thinking. With this in mind I can definitely see merit in working the ramp and I can see why that would be experience that a company would find useful in a low time pilot. Having said that, would I trade my 1 year on the Twin Otter for 1 year of working that ramp? Not so much.

The bottom line, as one poster mentioned, is that you simply can't make blanket statements in such matters. The experience I gained in my first few years was directly applicable to flying planes and perhaps that has made me a better pilot than I would be otherwise. However it's easy to say that working the ramp may have helped me in other areas. Who knows. I think we can all agree on this though. No one in their right mind would turn down a direct entry job as a low timer and rightfully so. The goal is to fly planes and be as proficient at it as possible. Whatever path you take to get there, best of luck and stay safe.

Cheers,
Chax